Emotional Intelligence: How Do We Develop Empathy and Awareness as an Enneagram 5?

[00:00:00] 


Introduction to Emotional Intelligence
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[00:00:34] Josiah: All right. We're back again. Here to talk about emotional intelligence. Which is, we like the second half of that term.

[00:00:44] Sam: Yes.

[00:00:45] Cody: We do.


Defining Emotional Intelligence
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[00:00:46] Josiah: Maybe we can start with how How Each of us kind of define emotional intelligence.

[00:00:53] Sam: That's a good question.

[00:00:55] Cody: Sam go first.

[00:00:56] Sam: Yes. Okay. I guess over the years I've sort of worked with this concept or adjacent concepts and I would characterize it as the ability to discern. emotions, both oneself and others, accurately, and then respond to what those are.

[00:01:20] Cody: Okay.

[00:01:21] Josiah: That's a succinct way to put it. Yeah.

[00:01:23] Cody: Yeah. Like

[00:01:24] Josiah: You know, I, I've done a little bit of research just around the different types of intelligence. because I, it was helpful for me to learn that there are different types of intelligence and that it's not just, The, intellect or the being in my head that makes me intelligent, but there, and, and it's obvious to other people, but I think that as fives, we tend to zero in on just a specific type of intelligence.

[00:01:53] and the way that I think about it is, is very similar to what you described. It's, it's being aware enough of the emotions that are happening, both externally and internally. and then being able to respond to them in a productive way, basically.

[00:02:12] When I say emotional intelligence, then what does that bring up for you?


Personal Experiences with Emotional Intelligence
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[00:02:17] Cody: have these situations that happen. Not, not as much anymore, but they used to happen a lot. where. Somebody would get emotional about something and I would be so annoyed that they were feeling emotion that was not pleasant to be around. 

[00:02:36] Sam: Yep. 

[00:02:37] Cody: just like, you're being inconvenient right now.

[00:02:40] I need you to clean up your act. move on, right? Like I'm not the person to come to for this. And for some weird reason, especially younger years when I was the, when this, this feeling was the most, potent in my life was the time where everybody wanted to come to me with all their problems. And I was like, what, what did I do to deserve this hell? But then because of my frustration with whatever it is they were going through. And of course, I feel As a five, we have this ability to like, distill things down very quickly, right? And especially in, in like real time sometimes, and I just, I, you, you run around somebody, call it, talk to them, and you're like, I know what the problem is.

[00:03:21] I can hear it right now. And if you just do these things, these three things, you know, your life will be better. And they never listen. But they always come to you because you're so straightforward about the information. this is how you fix it. Oh, Okay, cool. And they go and do the same thing. and so I don't know, I feel like emotional intelligence, that sounds emotionally dumb to me.

[00:03:42] So that's not intelligent emotionally, that reaction to, people. And I'd like to think that I have grown and become more intelligent emotionally in my life, but I probably haven't.

[00:03:55] Sam: A lot of people come to Fives for advice because we can maintain a perspective very well. And we have, you know, we don't get caught up emotionally.

[00:04:05] But I think people learn not to come to us with just their emotions. they just want to cry it out. they go to a different friend.

[00:04:15] Cody: Yeah. I hope so. 

[00:04:17] Josiah: I'm curious. Was there a moment when you realized that emotional intelligence was important in your life?

[00:04:25] did you start to to value emotional intelligence?

[00:04:29] Sam: Okay, that's a I feel like that's a different question. 


The Role of Emotional Intelligence in Relationships
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[00:04:31] Sam: Um, I'd say it was in my friendship with a four. one of my very best friends from ye when I was young until now is a four. And, he'll be very happy to hear me talking positively about him on podcast, but basically, you know, they, they're extremely emotionally intelligent.

[00:04:52] I mean, they're one of the most emotionally intelligent types of the Enneagram I'd say, along with tooth and his ability to hold space for any feeling that anyone was having at any time is. It's so beautiful and admirable. Even though I'm not a super emotionally expressive person, yes, more so than other fives, but less so than other people. When I would have feelings, he was just so amazing with them, like validating them for, you know, the end to the nth degree and encouraging me to have them more. And I think that's what sort of started to clue me into it being a type of skillfulness that I don't possess or I didn't at the time.

[00:05:39] Cody: Yeah, just so he knows all about that. Relationships with before.

[00:05:43] Josiah: Yeah, so being married to amy before definitely is One of those times I even before that though just internally I think I realized the need for it when You know, growing up, I would have emotional outbursts and I didn't know what to do with them. And, and then I ashamed myself for having them, which then just made them worse.

[00:06:08] And, and so I think I recognize the need, but I think that Amy's probably the first person in my life who modeled emotional intelligence for me. I, at least that I can, I can remember and, and she's so highly, intelligent in many ways, but especially emotionally intelligent. She, as a true four is, is like you said, Sam, really great about holding space.

[00:06:36] and just, she's highly intuitive, and, and picks up on, on things. That I'm like, how did you sense that? I just, I, I, and I, and I feel like I've grown a lot in that area over the years. and we consider myself, you know, highly emotionally aware for a five, but it just is nothing compared to being highly emotional aware as a, as a four.

[00:07:04] Oh yeah. Well, and 

[00:07:07] Sam: actually makes me think of a story I want to just say real quick about the same person I was just talking about, like my best friend. I, it, this was over text even. We were talking about something. I don't remember what it was anymore, but I said it's all good, dude. And he said, I can tell you're upset because you called me dude. And I was upset and he knew before me. Because of, he read my texting patterns, you know, and it was, it's, mind blowing. It was so impressive.

[00:07:36] Josiah: think has accelerated my growth in this area is that I can't hide my emotions from her. Like she picks up on the subtlest little clues, the subtlest little shifts in energy. And, And oftentimes, especially now, as we've grown together as a couple, she will call them out and she will check in with me.

[00:07:56] and it took me a long time to be okay with that because I feel very, very exposed. It is a, it's a emotionally vulnerable state that I've had to learn to start to get comfortable with. but, but it also, in that I see the value because, you know, Because she's that way, because things get brought to the surface and exposed, then we can work through them and they don't sit and fester the way they would if I was in a relationship with someone who wasn't emotionally intelligent.

[00:08:26] Cody: It's funny. 


Challenges and Growth in Emotional Intelligence
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[00:08:40] Cody: I've had the exact same experience, but from the other side, whereas Madison's a six. So she's also like hyper intuitive and, and always notices the tiniest little differences for me. The problem is, is that I. I think nowadays, especially I do kind of wear my emotions more on my sleeve like people I don't I don't leave it ambiguous what I'm feeling about things, but the problem is, is I don't make that distinction of what like, I don't distinguish the feelings.

[00:08:55] I can just be generally upset about or stressed out about something. And it seems like I'm upset or stressed with everyone around me because

[00:09:01] of just how absorbed I can get into it. and just trying to like, yeah. Don't know create space in my own life for my own emotions. I feel like that's actually something that's like a pretty big challenge for me because I Don't know if it's like my self preservationist part.

[00:09:16] I just it's not it's not comfortable dealing with feelings anyway But it's also not comfortable feeling them in your body like because your body feels like Anxiety is a very specific feeling that's physical and uncomfortable and, that's how I acknowledged anxiety first was being more self aware about my body and how, trying to be more aware of how my body would handle different situations and what that would feel oh shit, I actually do have anxiety. but she's like that too where it's like she'll pick up the tiniest little change but hers is like anxious energy about why whereas I assume Amy's probably not that way. I feel like anytime amy has approached me with emotional questions. It's like from a very calm Like but comfortable place, you know, and it's like just kind of leaning into the situation.

[00:10:01] Whereas like madison is like same same Same intention But from an angst, a place of anxiety of what's going on? Are we okay? are you okay? What's, you know, just kind of like wanting to check in. And she also is not, she's like the first to say something like before I even know that something's wrong.

[00:10:21] And then I have to be like, well, shit, I don't know what's wrong with me. I haven't really thought about it. I'm just irritated. And then I start processing out loud. I'm like, Oh, it's actually all these things. And this, somebody said this thing to me at work today or whatever, like last couple of weeks for my job have been absolute. Hell and so like it's been hard for me to just keep a positive energy and she's felt it a lot And so I've been but I always have to be like, okay. Well, first of all, it has nothing to do with you So let's just go from that place. Whatever. I'm feeling it literally has nothing to do with you you didn't do anything like I don't feel anything negative and Just express that first and then we can kind of dive into it from a place of like where she's okay whoo, it's getting the we need to talk text, you know, it's what, that's that kind of energy that I feel like she's probably like responding to for me.

[00:11:03] So like I've had to learn to communicate more often about what I'm actually feeling. And it turns out it helps you process too. So

[00:11:13] Sam: a fun question. Are all the other types on the Enneagram more emotionally intelligent than us?

[00:11:20] Cody: absolutely not. Sevens or eights sevens or eights. 

[00:11:28] Sam: Okay, real. 

[00:11:29] Cody: Yep. 

[00:11:30] Sam: threes, they actually are, but then they don't use it. you know, they're heart centered but heart suppressed. So they feel things and they're just like, Oh, fuck that. I'm just gonna forge ahead. Like I said, I think twos and fours are the most emotionally intelligent. I mean, there's nothing a four is more comfortable with than discussing emotions, which is probably why, like you said, Cody, Amy's really calm. And they're not very calm about everything, but they're very calm about feeling. And then a six is going to be six as an attachment type. So they're really attuned to the other in terms of them feeling safe. So they

[00:12:03] are going to be like hyper aware of little changes, but they're going to, like you said, respond with anxiety.

[00:12:08] Cody: Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I, we, we have an example of, I think we probably all have an example of twos in our life, right? it's just a, a four is one thing. I love having a conversation about emotions. I love getting into like experience and what people are feeling in different experiences in their life. But then I have a, I think whereas fours have a greater, a deeper well to pull energy from for that conversation, my well feels much shallower.

[00:12:35] So like I have, I have about an hour in me of serious conversation about emotions and then after that I need to not just recharge, but like I need to like zone out on something like I can no longer process information that needs to be something that I'm just like not doing anything with. yeah. And so that could be tough. 

[00:12:52] Because sometimes the 

[00:12:53] four, the four is like right as the four is really getting into it. Then I'm like, I'm out.

[00:12:59] Sam: yeah, I was going to say one of the 4 5 dynamics that I see is like the 4 feels shut down quite often because they would want to do that

[00:13:07] always. And 5 has to be like, no, we could do it for a little bit, but I can't do this all the time. I don't know how you relate to that.

[00:13:18] Josiah: Yeah. I mean, this is, this has been a point of contention at various times in our marriage. I think that I, especially when I was younger, I was, you know, I had, I had a lot of different issues, including like physically with my health and I had really bad chronic fatigue. And so I had, Very little energy already.

[00:13:41] and so then trying to have a lengthy conversation about emotions. Like I just, there was no chance I was able to do that. or if, if it, if it did, it went really, really badly because I had very low tolerance and was, you know, easily set off and, and it is generally a disaster. and, and so I had to, part of my journey was first figuring out the health stuff and getting into a better place there.

[00:14:13] and then leaning into it more. it took a little while to start to see the benefit of, of those conversations. but once I did, once I saw how it, it opened things up for us, how it brought us closer, Then I started to lean in a lot more and, and now one of the things that Amy does, as much as she can is, is prepare me for when we need to have a conversation that could be quite emotional.

[00:14:40] She's Just so you know, I would like to talk to you about this, this evening, and this is the topic and you can prepare yourself and I'm like, okay, that's really helpful because I can, you know, mentally preserve energy knowing that I'm going to need to use it on this conversation. And, and so we've, we're, you know, obviously we.

[00:15:01] We don't have all of that figured out, but we've at least started to build some skills and some and find some techniques that work for us to make it work and make it productive.

[00:15:13] Sam: Applause for her. That's amazing behavior. That's, that's literally what I advise people to do who are partnered with Fives. tell us in advance what it's going to be about, what time, how long, and then we can do it.

[00:15:28] Josiah: Yep.

[00:15:29] Cody: I don't even think I need that much information. I just need to know it's not about me. If it is a talk or if it is about me and is it good or bad And then I I gauge my energy based on that information because if it's a if it's a Here's the if it's a if it's a thing that's about somebody else or something else Like it does not drain me the same way as if it's like a actual serious conversation that involves me and another person You know, it's if it's a In between us one on one conversation, but if it's like somebody venting about their job like if if Madison comes to me It's like just venting like I needed I need to let all this out about this You know, she'll sometimes she'll be like I need to get all this out and just vent About my job and these things and I'm like, okay, I'm ready go, you know And so it's like undivided attention now.

[00:16:10] I know this is like something that's important she like sets that instead of just going into it because If I'm you know Into my latest obsession or whatever. The thing is that I'm not my brain is not in the moment And she just starts going into it. It's like it hits me differently. It's just it's a different kind of energy because it feels intrusive. And if that's anybody, you know, that's a hard thing about work and jobs. Sometimes it's if you work in an office or something and people just start talking to you about serious things, like then you have to, you know, manage that accordingly with energy. And it's, it's a, it's just a different feeling.


Misreading Emotions and Learning from Mistakes
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[00:16:45] Josiah: So I'm wondering if you can think of any examples where you have, misread someone else's emotions and, and how that went.

[00:16:55] Sam: I have a recent example of that. Actually, two recent examples.

[00:17:00] And they're both with, with threes. so in both cases, I thought I misread the emotions as like contentedness, general happiness, joy, pleasure, like positive things. And they were like deeply unhappy and insecure and confused with the signals I was giving them because I guess I was being too stoic and, you know, even keel and not enthusiastic enough and threes, they often need a lot of over enthusiastic, like positive feedback.

[00:17:39] And I wasn't giving that, but they were acting what I thought was normal and happy. So I misread their cues as everything's good. And then luckily they spoke up, this is two different occasions, but like identical situation and said, is, do you have a problem with me? what's wrong? Why don't you like me?

[00:18:02] Basically, why don't you like what's happening? And I was like, what? I'm fine with what's happening. I'm, I love what's happening. What are you talking about? And it was just, it was a complete misread by me and them of me. they misread. my neutral, like my basic happy neutrality as negativity. So it was a misread on both ends.

[00:18:24] And then in both cases, they ended up thinking I like hated them or hated the project or, you know, was like, didn't like what was going on, but I couldn't read the three subtle cues of, of displeasure properly. I just read them as neutral or positive. I still don't know how to do that, but that happened.

[00:18:45] Cody: Hmm.

[00:18:46] Josiah: Yeah, I, it often happens kind of the opposite for me where I, I get paranoid and just assume that they're like people think negative of, negatively of me and, and, and then I'll either get anxious about it or I will, use it as an excuse to kind of write them off.

[00:19:07] Cody: Hmm.

[00:19:08] Josiah: they probably, you know, like multiple examples of when that's happened, where they either were neutral with me or positive.

[00:19:16] and, and I just, I could not pick up on the proper cues.

[00:19:22] Cody: Hmm. I feel like I have different situations with different times I think nines nines in my life are really hard for me to read and understand and and relate to and Because I just I don't get the mentality of nine in any way I don't relate to it So I don't I don't pick up cues and I can think of a couple people that I know that are like nine wing one or one wing nine that in my life that I like I literally have no idea how they're ever feeling and if and if You And they don't have the emotional, capacity to tell you, you know, because they, they just can't do it.

[00:19:58] And so it's it's, it's a weird, weird friendship to have with them because I, I already, my base level emotion is nothing. it's not happy, it's not sad, it's nothing. You know what I mean? so what I, and that's what I was thinking about when you were saying this and, and Sam, when you were saying your story, what if all of our emotional baseline is nothing, like it's just neutral and no feeling at all, then when somebody is feeling even a little bit negative, but they're not usually that way, we would interpret it as not negative, because, oh, they're, they're at our baseline, nothing.

[00:20:33] Sam: Interesting theory.

[00:20:34] Josiah: Yeah. You know, I, I recently started working with someone I'm pretty sure is an eight and they I, I, they're very like straight to the point, very forward. And, and I always said that that's what I want. and, and so I thought that I would enjoy that. But for some reason I'm struggling with that a bit right now

[00:21:00] Cody: Hmm.

[00:21:02] Josiah: because, I mean, that's how I, I tend to be more of that way, or at least I, I'm.

[00:21:07] I've, I've learned to be less that way over time. but I have started to get really paranoid around it's, it's feels like they're, they're being, they're very dissatisfied with my work, or with how I'm approaching something. but they're just, it's not that way at all. Like they're just very, it's And, and now I'm like, is this, is this what it's been like for all of the people in my life without that? I've been like, now I'm starting to get a taste of that. And I'm like, oh, wow. I could see why many people thought I was an asshole. 

[00:21:50] Cody: Yep. 

[00:21:51] it's only say what's wrong with things like they, they're just kind of oriented to pointing out the mistakes and they don't do positive reinforcement because I think it's like patronizing.

[00:22:04] Sam: So just because that person only says what you could do better doesn't mean that they don't like you.

[00:22:10] and yes, that is how we come across to other people.

[00:22:13] Cody: Yeah. I was just going to say, I try really hard to only be that way with people who deeply know me. And then I like, like Josiah is one of the few people that I'm like, I, they, he gets my mostly unfiltered version. My parents are actually the people who get my most unfiltered version of me, like completely I, anytime I talked to, when I need to really vent about something or I really need to let my emotions out, I usually just call my mom because she'll listen to it and take it.

[00:22:40] And she knows where it's coming from at this point. And we have. An amazing relationship in that way where we did not always have that but I always It wasn't always the case that I felt better after talking to my parents, but when it comes to things like that But they do get on to me sometimes and say like you you really shouldn't ever say that out loud to anyone ever again Make sure you don't say that to anyone because it sounds like I I just get like You know, you know, we all know unfiltered version of a thought Is the most offensive and abrasive that thing that could possibly be said about something, especially when it's insensitive on top of that, which is me most of the time, something you said a minute ago, just that I was going to say was, it's funny, the differences between you and I on this topic, and I'd be interested in Sam, if this is the same with you or not, but like, when you're talking about how you start feeling anxiety about if somebody likes you or not, based on what job, you know, whatever the thing may be, and it's I just don't feel that ever because like I only care about what I only care about the opinions of those that I respect and most of the time aides are not typically someone I respect.

[00:23:45] So I don't I don't ever get in that situation.

[00:23:47] You know what I mean though? Like it's earned respect, not like general human respect,

[00:23:52] but 

[00:23:52] Josiah: this is someone, this is someone I respect, so yeah,

[00:23:54] Cody: yeah, 

[00:23:55] Sam: instinct. I mean,

[00:23:56] social instincts of every, of every type feel that way. I mean, five's less than most, but social, the social instinct is where am I in the group? What, do I have a tribe? Do I have a community? 


Navigating Social Perceptions
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[00:24:08] Sam: How do they

[00:24:09] feel about me? So I, I don't feel that way at all. Actually, just, I, I, I just go about my business.

[00:24:16] And

[00:24:16] then when someone doesn't like me, I'm really surprised. 

[00:24:19] Josiah: Oh, must be 

[00:24:20] Cody: I I'm not surprised. I'm 

[00:24:22] not, I kind of assume that most people don't like me, but not in a sad way, you know what I mean? Like I, I, I think some people I went over and some people I rubbed the wrong way and I'm okay with that. Like I don't really care what people think of me, but that's probably also why I don't do well in jobs.

[00:24:36] I don't play the political game very well in that way and I don't, I don't filter my emotions well in All situations. I think these days I do a lot better job of filtering depending on who I'm around and what's happening and what context it's in. But I, there was definitely times where I was a hundred percent fired because didn't like what I had to say.


The Anxiety of Uncertainty
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[00:24:59] Josiah: I think, for me, it's, the anxiety comes more around not knowing where I stand with someone.

[00:25:06] Cody: Yeah, 

[00:25:07] Josiah: so if someone doesn't like me, which I've experienced a lot, that doesn't really bother me most of the time. it's, it's the Not knowing, basically the uncertainty of, of if I'm playing the game correctly, you know, if I'm, if I'm making the right moves or not, and, or really like what, what the rules of the game are, I think is what it really is.

[00:25:30] It's what are the rules of the game? And, and then I can choose whether or not I want to play it. But if I don't know what the rules are, but I am expected to play it, then that, that just sends me spiraling.

[00:25:42] Cody: Yeah. That's your social 

[00:25:44] social. 

[00:25:44] Sam: social. instinct

[00:25:45] of you. 

[00:25:46] Cody: I was going to say my self preservation is, Oh, it has rules. I don't want to play.

[00:25:50] Sam: And then

[00:25:50] sexualism, we're like, okay, does, is there one person here that I have a spark with? Okay, cool. I don't care about anyone else.

[00:25:57] Cody: Yeah. And I definitely feel that too, some of my favorite jobs are places where you have that one person that's makes it all worth being there for because they're super fun to be around or whatever. I feel that and I don't know if that's how you meant it, but that's what I, the way I took it.

[00:26:11] Sam: It is not how I meant it. I meant it more like a chemical, you know, attraction sense.

[00:26:18] Cody: I mean, I do that. I mean, I mean that in some degree, I think in the same way, but I'm like making a situation bearable because you connect with. Something or someone that's interesting

[00:26:27] I think is yeah


Understanding Emotional Intelligence
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[00:26:29] Sam: So maybe we want to rebrand this episode as emotional unintelligence because we are not discussing emotional intelligence because we don't seem to have it.

[00:26:39] Josiah: I mean, we have it to a degree. 

[00:26:41] Cody: landed the plane yet, we don't know we still got time 

[00:26:45] Josiah: shift shifting gears here a little bit. I am. I'm curious, especially Sam, from your perspective, where empathy fits in with emotional 


Empathy and Manipulation
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[00:26:55] Sam: I think they're inextricable for sure. And the highest empathy types and highest empathy people seem to be also the most emotionally intelligent people. What's interesting is that emotionally intelligent doesn't mean in my perspective, it doesn't mean like kind or good.

[00:27:14] Cody: Yeah, 

[00:27:19] Sam: the shadow side of this in people I work with and people I've known, where people use their emotional intelligence basically like for evil, like they use it manipulatively. I think empathy is essential, but it seems like just because you have empathy doesn't make you a good person. It's like you have, you can have empathy and emotional intelligence and know how other people are feeling and then use that against them

[00:27:41] Josiah: Hmm. Yeah, that's a really good point. Oh, what, which types are more likely to do that?

[00:27:48] Sam: to then force,

[00:27:50] Josiah: How 

[00:27:52] Sam: they have those, those superpowers. I mean, they know their, their own feelings. You know those feelings wheels where it's like anger is one quadrant and sadness is one quadrant and then within that there's 30 different shades of sadness and I look at that and I'm like I have no idea if I'm even sad much less these 30 shades. A two, in their sleep they know which of the 30 shades they are and everyone around them and with complete accuracy and it's really impressive. But if, you know, if they're less healthy. They will then use that to manipulate the situation. I know how you feel. I know what you need. I'm going to make you indebted to me by, you know, using what I know about your emotions to get, you know, in a codependent relationship with you.

[00:28:43] There's, it can get really ugly.

[00:28:45] Josiah: do we stop that?

[00:28:47] Sam: You, you look perturbed.

[00:28:49] Josiah: what are our defenses against the, emotional terrorism?

[00:28:54] Sam: Oh, you said it, not me. I don't know if there are any, like I oftentimes you'll see fives, we'll just shut down to it. But I've seen fives even, get caught up. It's you can get kind of gaslit, like something twos will do specifically twos, not fours will, use their emotion of that moment to define factual situations. So like one day when they're feeling a certain positive emotion, they'll be like, sure. I'm happy to do this thing that you want. And then two days later, they're. upset and resentful and they're like, I never said I would do what that I would never do that and they really believe it and it's their whole reality has to do with their emotions and can't be, extricated from their emotions and the five or whoever is with them ends up feeling crazy and gas lit.

[00:29:48] Josiah: Hmm.

[00:29:49] Sam: So I'm not sure what the defenses are. Honestly,

[00:29:54] Josiah: I'm wondering, I mean, I guess. 


Emotional Intelligence in Practice
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[00:29:56] Josiah: The only thing I can think of is increasing our own emotional intelligence so that we can be more aware of first our own emotions, but then what's going on in the emotional landscape around us

[00:30:07] Sam: that's a good idea.

[00:30:08] Cody: it's funny how often in my life I have tried to, manufacture emotional intelligence without actually having it. well, for example, you know, you think about emotional intelligence being like, you know, creating more empathy and in different aspects and being able to, you know, connect with people on an emotional level that, May or may not relate to you.

[00:30:29] I don't know. I just feel like there's certain it creates a versatility in connection and conversation that we don't always naturally have especially as fives and like I can't tell you how many books I have read on body language because I have the desire and i've always had the desire to be able to read a room and know like How to navigate that and the idea of almost like someone using emotional intelligence against me personally Kind of sounds like a fun time like it's cuz it's like they'll kiss and now we're playing emotional chess This could be fun. you know, I mean like it sounds interesting And so I don't know gaslighting is never fun. But you know people kind of like It's almost like a dance of conversation where it's like, what are they trying to make me feel? What are they trying to do right now, you know but I feel like I've tried to in many times in my life try to like Manifest an emotional intelligence or at least appear emotionally intelligent, maybe even to myself. When there's always this void in the middle that I don't understand of whatever that thing is, whatever that situation, that feeling where all of the actual things reside about that situation or that person. That's the part that it's like, Oh, that's my, that's like a big blur of the, on the scan, right? 

[00:31:43] just 

[00:31:43] Josiah: it's like you're you're intellectualizing emotional intelligence

[00:31:47] Cody: percent yeah, and

[00:31:48] I think I mean maybe that's something worth bringing up and at least mentioning in that way because like I'd say we probably Have all done that at some point maybe

[00:31:54] because 

[00:31:55] Josiah: yeah, it's fake it till you make it

[00:31:57] Cody: Right, yeah yeah, it's not all I don't know if that's always terrible advice, but in certain situations because I feel like I've never acted a much like Emotionally intelligent, you know what I mean?

[00:32:09] Like I tried to play a part of it and tried to fake it in that way But I don't know the more you learn about emotional intelligence the more you realize what it is

[00:32:18] Sam: also famously intellectualize our emotions as fives,

[00:32:22] so we'll feel a little bit. And then we'll be like, I'm feeling this, and here's why, and here's a whole bunch of theories about it. And we go right from, a tiny little sliver of feeling right into our concepts and our narrative. 


The Role of Somatic Therapy
---

[00:32:39] Sam: And I think the work, That's really good for you guys to do, you know, somatic therapy or whatever, where you really feel what that emotion feels like in your body

[00:32:49] without defining it and analyzing it.

[00:32:51] Josiah: that is hard. 

[00:32:52] Sam: Hate it.

[00:32:53] Josiah: yeah. I started working with a coach this year and, and he does that kind of stuff with me all the time. Like that's his, that's his main technique for me is making me feel this stuff and it's, and it's always, you know, cause I, and I will, I will automatically start intellectualizing it and I'll start creating a narrative around it.

[00:33:17] And he's stop. You're just building a story right now. close your eyes, breathe, you know, feel your body, and then basically, what he has me do is find, you know, tells me to feel the emotion, but then find where it is in my body, and place my hands on, on, on that.

[00:33:37] Sam: Exactly.

[00:33:38] Josiah: And then start these different visualizations techniques.

[00:33:41] And he'll often ask me like, what color is it? And just different stuff like that. and then we go through this process of me feeling it and then moving it through my body. and then often replacing it with a, a different emotion. And then amplifying that, to the point where one time he had me do, he had me do a warrior cry, so loud that I lost my voice for a week,

[00:34:06] Cody: Must

[00:34:07] have been an intense emotion 

[00:34:08] Josiah: Oh my God, it was super powerful.

[00:34:11] I had not felt like that before. And, and what that told me was that there is, Not just a whole range of emotions, but also just a whole, amplitude, spectrum of emotional, feeling emotions that I have cut myself off from, or have not been able to sort of really tap into. feeling something that strongly, It almost, it seemed like it was impossible.

[00:34:36] Like I couldn't even conceptualize it. but, but there have been like a few different moments in my life where I did experience such a strong emotion that it sort of broke me out of that model that I had built up of, of what it meant to feel things and realizing, Oh, I'm not actually feeling things or at least I'm like, Oh, I'm barely feeling things.

[00:34:57] and it's really easy for me then, you know, It's really easy for me to unconsciously get back into that state. And oftentimes what ends up happening is if I'm not maintaining awareness of it, then something in life will come along to kind of wake me up again.

[00:35:12] Sam: He sounds like a really good coach.

[00:35:14] Josiah: Yeah, he's a really good coach.

[00:35:16] All right.

[00:35:18] He's specifically an emotional intelligence coach.

[00:35:21] Sam: Oh,

[00:35:21] there you go. 

[00:35:22] Josiah: that's what he has trained in. Yeah. 

[00:35:24] Sam: So if a emotionally intelligent person, which in my experience is usually a feeling type on the Enneagram, like twos, threes, and fours, if they say to you, how are you feeling? What do you say back?

[00:35:38] Josiah: I normally I say, I don't know. That's what I start with. Yeah.

[00:35:43] Sam: I usually just say oh, I'm good or I'm

[00:35:46] fine. And now, you know, like having grown in this way, some, it bothers me when other people do that to me cause I'm like, well, that's not a feeling. If I work with like ones or sixes, you know, any non feeling type and I say like, how are you feeling? And they're like, I'm okay. Okay. It's not a feeling, but I definitely do that. And especially with, you know, my four friend and other feeling types that I know, they'll ask you like five times a day,

[00:36:12] Oh, how are you feeling? And good. Like I don't know what to say, but if you ask them, they, you probably get five different answers throughout the day.

[00:36:20] Josiah: Yeah. And, and often they're asking because they want you to ask them as well.

[00:36:26] Sam: That's a big thing, twos especially do that

[00:36:29] too. 

[00:36:30] Josiah: Yeah. I, you know, with Amy, she, she does ask me that a lot. she's gotten, she's gotten pretty good about. not pushing too, too much on that. and sort of sensing where I'm at. But normally my first response is, I don't know.

[00:36:47] or something like stressed, or something like that. And before I would get really annoyed that she would ask me, and then, you know, as I started, like I talked about before, as I started to see the value of, Feeling my emotions and, and growing an emotional intelligence. I will I, I really, I've started to really appreciate that she does this, because then it's an opportunity for me to stop, and actually check in.

[00:37:14] and try to do some exercises to figure out what am I actually feeling in this moment? or about this topic. And you know, half the time I still come up with, I don't know, but the other half of the time I usually come away with, deeper understanding of, of what I'm feeling in the moment.

[00:37:34] Sam: That's nice.

[00:37:35] Cody: I think it's I think it's there's a difference too, with Being whether or not you can be Your honest self with somebody when you're connecting on a an emotional like a higher emotional level I say that because I think about times where I can think about with the same person with the same friend who is particularly very on the the feeling Center like very much, you know Emotionally driven and loves to have long form conversations about that kind of thing and there were times in my life where they I didn't feel that I could be honest about how I felt or about maybe their intentions behind digging into a conversation about emotions.

[00:38:18] And maybe this is, maybe this is a little different perspective of emotional intelligence. Like I could feel That this was actually about them, but they were trying to dig in to me and it was disingenuine, but I could, if I can't call that out, then I don't want to have that conversation. I don't want to be in that situation.

[00:38:37] And so it becomes much more draining. It becomes much more cumbersome. And, I, I, I, I have more, you know, I load that more than anything. And I think that there's been. Especially maybe when we were younger, all of us, you know, like when you're younger and you have friends who are also younger and less emotionally intelligent, that is the association that I have with conversations that are more emotionally driven is they, you know, or at least growing up I did, I always thought of them as those, those burden of a conversation because what are they even trying to get out of this?

[00:39:11] You know, I never felt like I was trying to be more known in those conversations I just felt like it was about them and they just like you said it's like they if someone asks you how you're feeling because they want you to ask them and Those are the people I say I'm fine, too But you know, I think that in my 30s.

[00:39:27] I've I've I've come back around to this and maybe this is just also growing emotionally, but I, I find that I, I look forward to those conversations because they, especially as you get older, you don't have them as often. You don't see those people as often, right? And Depending on who it is, if it's a person that I'm not going to respond as I'm fine, I'm good, but like somebody asks me and it's you know what, actually, I've had a really hard week at work and I'm super stressed right now and I'm just feeling like a lot of weight and, you know, emotional, like just anxiety.

[00:39:56] I'm all over the place. I would rather have that response, but it means that I'm also prepared to have an emotional Conversation that's that I know is going to be productive I know it's going to be helpful whether it's just letting it out and hit them being a soundboard or I trust their judgment Or their perspective or I want to hear their thoughts on it.

[00:40:12] Like it's a very different Connection for me and is much more encouraging and promoting Emotional intelligence in my own life and want me wanting to grow and me wanting to have those connections with people But if I can't call them out on their bullshit when they're You You know, it's being disingenuine.

[00:40:30] I don't want to have that conversation

[00:40:32] Sam: that makes sense.

[00:40:33] Cody: I don't know what that has to do much with all of it but it made that's just a thought that I had because I was thinking about different experiences with the same person like Throughout my life and it's vastly different now than it used to be

[00:40:44] Sam: Actually, would that count as emotional intelligence? Because, the experience you described where you can tell someone is asking about you but they don't really want to know, and how hurtful that is, that's like extremely triggering for fives. We can always tell that.

[00:41:01] We have a real radar for that.

[00:41:03] Is that, I mean, I feel like that's emotionally intelligent of us to be able to read someone's intentions.

[00:41:10] Cody: Yeah, I mean that's a then that's a that's I don't think that's a part of conversation. We've gotten to yet is like What, you know, what do we bring to the table naturally from emotional intelligence? Because, obviously, we're not unemotional or non emotional people. We feel things. And I think, like you're saying, there are certain things that we probably do better than other things and maybe more than other types, in that way.

[00:41:30] Because, yeah, for sure, I can always sense that, it feels, you know, just, yeah, it hurts. It's disingenuine. I have a lot of triggers about those kinds of things, though. For

[00:41:40] various reasons. 

[00:41:41] Josiah: I feel like we have a pretty good radar for when people are trying to manipulate us emotionally.

[00:41:48] Sam: Yeah. 

[00:41:49] Josiah: and it doesn't mean that we're impervious to it, obviously, but, but more often than not, I think we can pick up on that.

[00:41:59] Sam: And I think another thing we do well is with other types that are like us. So that would just be other fives, maybe nines. We can read between the lines pretty well

[00:42:11] for the folks that aren't, you know, obviously super emotionally fluid or emotionally intelligent when at least me, like I've been in relationship with a lot of nines, like I can tell when they're hurting or when they're unhappy and they carry it a lot like we do. They don't usually say it really outright and they don't. say their feelings very easily, and it's I think we can pick up on kind of like the underdog people, the underdog types, what they're feeling.

[00:42:41] Josiah: Yeah, I agree with that. Sam. What, what is some advice you would give a five who wants to increase their emotional intelligence?

[00:42:53] Sam: I guess call that guy Josiah is working with.

[00:42:58] Cody: Yeah, no kidding

[00:43:00] Sam: Seriously, work with a somatic therapist or someone like you described Josiah, who holds us in our own body and makes us stay with the sensations of the emotions. Even as I'm saying this, I don't want to do it. I mean, we hate it. It's really hard work. But it increases emotional intelligence so much because we learn, you know, what anger actually feels like in our body, temperature sensations, like heat, you know, color, shape, like you were saying, Josiah, so that we can recognize it as it comes up and then know what to do with it.

[00:43:38] I think it's really helpful to work with someone who's well trained in those arenas.

[00:43:43] Josiah: Yeah, I agree with that. And also I think the first step is not just dismissing that kind of thing because for a long time I was very skeptical of the sort of somatic work, like what, what benefit. Am I getting from giving a color to something, you know, that just seems so arbitrary. And then I do it and I'm like, Oh my God.

[00:44:07] Because especially because when I, I, I went into it with an open mind and, and I'm like, you know, I trust the process and you know, if it ends up not doing anything for me, no harm. Right. I might just feel a little bit silly about myself. but the, the, experience of it. it was very, a very intuitive thing where he asked me the question and I wasn't anticipating the question.

[00:44:32] And without even thinking, I was like, it's purple, you know? And, and like, where did that come from? You know? and I think that there's the, we tend to discount The, those aspects that aren't very intellectual that are that those more somatic, those more kind of body centered, emotional centered experiences.

[00:44:56] And, and, and so just my, the first step I think is being open to those different experiences and, and knowing that they're, There is a whole world out there that we're not necessarily participating in. and that there's a lot of value in that, of, of, of having those experiences. and, and so let's not just throw it all out because we don't understand it yet.


Art and Emotional Expression
---

[00:45:27] Sam: You can get it also through art, you know, through art therapy even, but through artistic expression, creative expression. And I'd be curious on Cody's perspective on this as an artist, but in art, you're just, and I know any creative process, you are bypassing your intellectual, your intellectualism most times. And that can really build emotional fluency also. 

[00:45:51] Cody: Creative sessions happen when I bypass the intellectual because it doesn't mean it can't happen I think when I try to intellectualize something like songwriting tend to one, produce absolute shit, but two, I don't enjoy the process and I end up psyching myself out thinking I'm not actually good enough.

[00:46:11] Like I'll start building narratives around it because, you know, you just let that inner narrative go. It usually turns negative if you let it talk long enough. So it's I'm like, well, maybe I'll never write a song and maybe I'm not good enough. And I found that last year, I've talked about this, I think before on the show, but like I. Last year I did, the Febby Writers thing where you write a song a day, and every single time I have participated in that, it reminds me that the best There's always more to create, there's always more to feel, there's always more to express, and that well doesn't run dry. We just think it, we just like to pretend it does. And and I find that by removing that filter of intellectualism. I tend to, one, have a lot more fun, but then it becomes all about the possibilities are endless. And it's the most, it's, it ends up being the most therapeutic for me emotionally. And it also helps remind me that sometimes it's good to do that in other areas of your life.


Final Thoughts on Emotional Intelligence
---

[00:47:09] Josiah: So once again, we've come back around to stop thinking.

[00:47:14] Start doing and let yourself feel. There we go. We've summed it up.

[00:47:18] Cody: There it is.

[00:47:19] Sam: Well said.

[00:47:20] Josiah: All right. Until next time.

[00:47:22] Cody: Until next time.

[00:47:23] ​