Expectations: What do we expect from ourselves and others as an Enneagram 5?

[00:00:30] Josiah: Okay, we're recording. We're recording both places. Recording in both places. I see a red light on the board and I see a red light on the screen. Okay? Oh my God. For the third time, we're gonna try to have this conversation. Ugh.

[00:00:53] How do we even start it? I mean, we've done it two other times. No one's ever gonna hear it. Expectations. Expectations, man. We really had to temper our expectations with this. Temper or tamper? Tamp, temper. Temper our expectations. That doesn't make sense, Tam, our expectations. Tip it down. You know, like coffee grounds.

[00:01:19] Everybody should set their expectations for this episode. Yeah, let's do that Early, very low. Let's do Very low. Very low. You may never 

[00:01:25] hear this one. If something else happens again, if we have to record this conversation a fourth time, I'm just not gonna do it. 

[00:01:33] Yeah, it probably shows that we weren't supposed to.

[00:01:36] I think it's the universe working against us. Ugh.

[00:01:44] Okay. All right. 

[00:02:21] Let's get into it. All right, so I don't even remember. I don't, I, I don't remember where we went with the last conversation. The last one was really great. The last time. The second time. We should spend the whole episode talking about the last episode. That never happened. That never 

[00:02:37] happened.

[00:02:38] Well, so for the listeners, we tried to record this episode the first time, like two years ago. And we got like 15 minutes into it and couldn't go anywhere with it. So we were like, maybe this isn't the episode. So we stopped and we did something else. The only episode we've done that with, by the way. Yeah, it's the only one.

[00:02:55] Um, I definitely, I definitely expected it to happen more often. 

[00:02:58] Yeah, me too. Everything else that we recorded, 

[00:03:00] we released. Well now we've just gotten so like we in the zone when we can talk that I feel like we could probably talk about anything and talk about it for at least an hour. I think our live episodes have proven that.

[00:03:10] Don't 

[00:03:10] Jin, don't jinx us kid. 

[00:03:11] I think our live episodes have proven that we'll talk about anything That's true. But yeah, the second time we gave it a real shot, we made it, uh, like an hour and a half going on two hours, which is crazy. Like that's only happened like on the religion episode. Yeah. And like maybe one or two other times.

[00:03:27] And so usually I'm like piecing together for an hour, you know, we get a little more, but yeah. And it was, it was actually the second time we did it, we did it. Kind of spontaneously. We weren't even gonna record that episode. And we were talking in a conversation and I went and just hit record in the middle of that conversation.

[00:03:43] 'cause I felt it leaning into that. And there was like 20 minutes I had to cut out. In the beginning it was a little too personal and I said many names, but Cody was naming names, I was dropping them. But yeah. And so, but the whole conversation was so great. But. Every 20 seconds the audio cut out and I didn't do a backup audio.

[00:04:03] Like a dumb ass. Yeah. So here we are. Here, we're doing it again, but because the last one, it's your fault. It is all my fault. But the last time was so good. I'm like, we have to give it another go. We have to try. 

[00:04:13] What? So, so now you're setting their expectations too high. Yeah. It was great though. Oh man. It was so I think I wanna start this one completely differently.

[00:04:25] Okay. 

[00:04:43] I'm down and I wanna talk about our expectations. When we sit down and have a conversation like this, oh, because still to this day, this, we've done like 57 thin episodes of this. We've done close to that or more maybe, I think we did like 60 of afterthoughts or after After hours. Hours. After hours.

[00:04:49] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which, which doesn't really exist anymore. It doesn't, yeah. Um, and that was our, like our. Private podcast for the, the premium community back in the day. Yeah. Which doesn't exist. The community does, by the way. You can join the community, join that 

[00:05:04] community. It's all free. Well, we're, yeah, 

[00:05:05] we're not doing the premium thing.

[00:05:07] No 

[00:05:07] premium. Right. 

[00:05:07] And 

[00:05:08] yeah. 

[00:05:08] Um, and like, even though we've done, we've had like over a hundred conversations at this point. Yeah. It's still hard for me to sit down. 

[00:05:19] It's, yeah, I mean, yeah. Look at us tonight. You got here two and a half hours ago. Right? I don't just, 

[00:05:25] I don't just mean all of like the technical setup and 

[00:05:27] all of this.

[00:05:28] I don't either. I'm talking about like we sat in the dining room after dinner for a little while. I just didn't wanna come out here. Yeah. It's the dreading though. I'm a dread. Yeah. Anyway, I just am, so 

[00:05:37] Cody: I dread 

[00:05:38] Josiah: everything 

[00:05:38] and I think that there. Especially the longer I'm here before we have the conversation, the harder it gets too.

[00:05:46] Yeah, 

[00:05:47] and, and I think it's because I, of the expectations I, I'm placing on myself on behalf. Of our listeners, 

[00:05:56] Ooh, you know, how am how that's changed from the first few episodes. We were like, we had no expectations. We might be the only ones who overhear it. So it was like really low. And now we're like all of our listeners.

[00:06:07] Well, I, and, and once we get in and once we get like start talking it, it's fine. But it's, it's like I. Especially if it's a, if it's a conversation that I don't know where it's gonna go. Mm, yeah. Then I have that voice in the back of my head of like, what if we run out of stuff to say like, what if it's only, you know, we don't go long enough.

[00:06:26] What if I can't think of anything interesting to say. Like, what if I have, you know, and, and it just, it just keeps going and going and 

[00:06:35] I don't really have that. But I think it's 

[00:06:36] because you beat it out of me, 

[00:06:38] because I never know what we're gonna talk about. That's true. You've been doing this to me since the first episode.

[00:06:43] That's why when you hear those questions where you asks me a question in the beginning and I sound like, I don't know what you were about to say, it's a hundred percent true. I have no idea. Those first like 25 episodes, I had no clue what we were walking. You would, you'd just be like, I'd be like, what are we talking about tonight?

[00:06:57] You'd be like, you'll see. I've had people ask me like, if we script the cold opens and I'm like, no, that's completely genuine. No, we sit, we think about a question and then we go. Yeah. And yeah. Well, I think about a question and then I just pop it to you and see what you say. Yeah. You've also, there's been times where you've asked me like 10 questions to get the right answer.

[00:07:19] That's the little behind the scenes for you. Um, Yeah. No, it's, uh, I, well, I've never, and I've also, another part of that too is I haven't been worried about it because I know that we don't have to release that episode and I can usually cut it out, you know, and piece it together. It's part of the beauty of production.

[00:07:34] Yeah, that's true. I think not to like show everybody where the sausage is made, but like, well, I don't know, maybe it's something about like me wanting to make sure we deliver value. Well, yeah, of course. Yeah. And, and so, but, but putting, and I think we, we, maybe we've talked about this in previous conversations or maybe it was in the, the lost episode.

[00:07:56] Yeah. Um, But I, Okay. So I had to pause because I completely lost my train of thought and then remembered that I just said I was worried about it. 

[00:08:11] Cody: Yeah. Not knowing what to say. 

[00:08:15] Josiah: Maybe I'll just 

[00:08:16] leave 

[00:08:16] all that in there.

[00:08:19] Oh my God. See, this is, this is what happens when we go into this, or I go into it with expectations. Yeah. 

[00:08:28] Yeah. And how often we do that in all areas of life. 

[00:08:31] Like I, I've been catching myself in expectations, doing in all things, but like, it's funny, for me, the podcast is where I have the least expectations.

[00:08:38] But maybe it's just because we've done it so many times. It's like I, I have the expectation that. It's gonna go well because we'll have fun and by the end of, it'll be like, that's a good conversation. You know, because we always do, right? No matter how we start it. And usually that's the case. Very rarely have we been, we've maybe there's been a handful, like a few, two or three where we get to the end, we're like.

[00:08:58] I guess that'll work, 

[00:08:59] you know? But you know, the, the funny thing about those, those are normally when we're like, we just gotta get, we gotta record something and we, you know, yeah. We, and, and here's here's the topic. Yeah, yeah. Here's the topic. We'll see how this goes. And We'll, and, and we feel okay about it, and then we release it.

[00:09:11] And often. Those are the ones we get the most feedback about. It's true. Yeah. It was like positive feedback. 

[00:09:16] So often actually where I'm always like, this was whatever, this was not my favorite episode. And then everybody comments on it and talks about it and I'm just like, wow. It really impacted I'm, I mean, that just goes to show how we, the one thing we can't predict or have expectations on is how other people are gonna receive things.

[00:09:31] Yep. You just 

[00:09:32] can't, it's the same, it's the same way with a newsletter. Like sometimes, especially lately when I've been. Because I have so much going on with like the fully five accelerator and making sure that everyone in there has what they need. Yeah. And and so I sometimes I'll get to like Friday and I'm like, oh shit.

[00:09:49] The newsletter goes out tomorrow in the morning and I haven't ridden it yet. And so I'll bust something out quick and I'm like, this is, you know, this is not my best. But it's, you know, it's good. And then. Those will be the ones where I'll get replies from people, like, oh, this is the best one yet. I'm like, what?

[00:10:05] Like I just didn't think about it. Imagine what we could do if we had no expectations on ourselves. Maybe we'd be putting out the best shit we've ever done. I don't know. That's the key. Yeah. Maybe that is the key. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I, it's hard. 

[00:10:18] It's hard though 'cause like so much of my expectations involve other people.

[00:10:22] Like they, and I try to, 'cause I, you know, you try to imagine yourself, just like you said earlier, from the perspective of the listener. I imagine myself from the perspective of other people to me and how, how that gets perceived. And I just, you, you're always going, it's that whatever expectation you had is always either gonna be like, exceeded expectations or.

[00:10:43] Was a huge letdown because it's impossible to predict how other people see you. Mm. Like you don't know how people see you in any given moment. I feel like, and, and I can, I can spiral out when I think about like how other people see me. Like if I think about me from your perspective, it, I'll start spiraling out.

[00:10:59] I'll start thinking about like. What, what is what? What do you think about me? Like when you see me? Like what are the little things you focus on? You know, it's like, hold on. What do you think? I think about you? I don't know. It depends on the day, honestly and how in my head I am. Yeah, 

[00:11:16] I do remember one part of our last conversation, okay. Which was you asked me if, uh, if you met my expectations as a friend. That was the opening question, I think, but I said No, just to be a dick. Yeah.

[00:11:37] I, I think the. The main takeaway was that in the past especially, I had a lot more expectations of you around just like being more proactive. Oh yeah, sure. Or reactive. Even in our friendship. Yeah. Do I do better at that now? 

[00:12:01] Marginally. Yeah. Marginally. Okay, man. See, I thought I was doing a lot better.

[00:12:10] No, it is just like often I, I, I would expect a response to certain text and then just don't, don't get a response. Oh, like half the time. Like which ones? Like half the test. Oh, okay. Yeah. But. But that's fine. I honestly like learning that you are on the spectrum. Yeah. Actually helped a lot. Yeah. Okay.

[00:12:35] Because that helped me set expectations of like, okay, this is just Cody processing things differently than me. Yeah. And, and that's fine. Yeah. 

[00:12:46] Yeah. I'm glad. Yeah. Some of those things, I don't know if I could change, I could try to change some of them, but like, yeah. Sometimes I, and I just don't. Think about it a lot.

[00:12:55] Like it's, it's, it's, I don't, I, it doesn't, like, I don't, some of the things you send me, I don't think to respond or, or what'll happen is you'll send me a video and I'm like, I'll respond when I watch it and then I don't watch it. And because I forget. 'cause like every, especially these days, like, 

[00:13:09] and then, and then you're like, make a playlist for me.

[00:13:11] I'm like, okay. And so I add all that to your playlist 

[00:13:13] and then I forget that that exists. 

[00:13:16] Yeah. 

[00:13:16] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's okay. It is really, I see you adding videos though. At least you were for a while. And I was like, oh, he thought of me and I don't watch the video. Oh. I add, I add videos like every week. Oh really?

[00:13:26] Oh man. There's probably a lot of on there now. Wow, 

[00:13:29] Cody: okay. 

[00:13:29] Josiah: Yeah. I do the same thing to Amy and she, she probably 

[00:13:31] has like a thousand videos on her list now. Yeah. I send, I send Madison memes all the time and she never watches them. It hurts my feelings. And then I think this must be what Josiah feels. So 

[00:13:42] you are capable of empathy.

[00:13:44] Cody: Oh yeah, for sure. What it pertains to me. That makes sense. Yeah. 

[00:13:49] Josiah: Oh man. I think that one of the problems that we had though was we wouldn't communicate our expectations. Oh yeah, for sure. And so even if I had. That expectation of you, uh, to be more like proactive in our friendship. I never said anything.

[00:14:07] Right. And so how are you supposed to know that? Yeah, definitely. Which, which drives me crazy when people do that to me. Like that's mm-hmm. That's the thing is one of the worst feelings for me as a five is feeling like other people have expectations of me, and either they're unrealistic expectations or they're expectations that.

[00:14:31] Are unsaid. Yeah. And then I don't know where I stand. And then I am left to try to figure it out and that I hate that so much. 

[00:14:42] Yeah, for sure. Like, I don't like the guessing game and don't, don't let me guess how you feel about something. I don't, I'm not gonna guess. Like I just won't do it. So many relationships in my life I was in that they just wanted to play that game all the time.

[00:14:55] And we didn't last very long because I never met their expectations. But it's because I'm in my own little bubble. Like I don't see anything else like that. And so, yeah, I, I always tell people like, please just tell me if you have a problem with something I'm doing or if you, whatever the expectation is, like, just tell me what it is, then we can talk about it, whatever.

[00:15:13] Still working on that with Madison. She's still, still likes to forget to tell me something, how she feels about things sometimes. But yeah, I don't think I'm ever gonna be. An expert at guessing and like intuiting where someone's coming from with something because I'm just not paying attention that hard, which is also like, in a funny way when you think about it also is reversed.

[00:15:36] How we think people see us and they see all of our little details and all the bad things about us. And most people are just in their own head, like Yeah. You know, being the center of their own story. Right. And so, yeah, it's, it would be really weird to see yourself through somebody's eyes if you could actually do that.

[00:15:51] Like, can you imagine? That'd be wild. I don't know if I'd wanna do that. 

[00:15:57] Cody: Yeah. 

[00:15:57] Josiah: I don't know if you could though. I mean, I'd have a hard time not doing it. Like if AI just predicts like what, like somehow figures an an a algorithm, what it's like, what it's like to be in somebody else's head looking at you, talking to you

[00:16:12] as if it was like the Truman Show, but you,

[00:16:17] that's kind of terrifying. Or that movie, uh, this is gonna be a deep cut, but Ed tv, did you ever watch that? Oh my god. Him, Matthew McConaughey. Yeah. 

[00:16:27] Yeah. I gotta be honest, I don't know where 

[00:16:33] we're going with this conversation. No, 

[00:16:35] Should we just do a different episode? Fuck. Are you serious? 

[00:16:41] Um, I don't know. I'm asking you like we can keep trying to press on, there's some things that we could revisit and probably still just talk about it. You know? You don't have to go through all that. I mean, we're already in this like 20 minutes, only about probably 15 minutes of your,

[00:16:58] it's like the first time it's because we stopped, started talking about ourselves. I think we shouldn't have started in the place where we were talking about the last conversation and then getting it in our heads. Right? And we've talked about ourselves this whole time in the show, and we haven't like been using anecdotes, which gets us to, okay, here, here we go.

[00:17:14] Anecdotes like, spur us on, here we go. Here we go. You got 

[00:17:17] it. Okay. Hang on. Should I? No, no. This, what, this is what, what you're saying right now is exactly what we need to say is that we started this episode all wrong. We did and, and we got in our heads and now we're struggling. Yeah. To have the conversation.

[00:17:39] 'cause we literally 

[00:17:39] analyzed all of the times Yes. That we did it 

[00:17:41] wrong. Out loud. Yes. And then, and then. We, we were trying to go over what we had said before and what stories we had told. Yeah. But we had already told them and emoted all of that, and it's just like there's no energy behind that at all. No.

[00:18:02] So we just need to have a fresh conversation. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So Cody. Yeah. Do I live up to your expectations?

[00:18:20] No,

[00:18:24] I deserve that.

[00:18:26]

[00:20:27] Josiah: Oh man. No, you do. Mostly you didn't use to, but okay. So the flip side of that if you looked at me in a certain way and I didn't meet those expectations 'cause you didn't vocalize it, my side of it was in similar, it was similar.

[00:20:42] Like I also felt like this, like this distance between us that was growing and just wasn't really sure how to fix it. It's something that has not traditionally been, that something that comes natural to me on like how to best talk about it. I also didn't talk about things like the, the podcast That's very true.

[00:21:08] Has helped a lot in that regard. And before this podcast, our friendship was a completely different friendship than it is now. Very true. Yeah. So, you know, if I think about it now, it's like. No, there's, there's really, I mean, I, well, one, I don't have as many expectations on you. I don't think I, I consciously try not to have expectations.

[00:21:26] Yeah. Whereas before I let those expectations like, kind of rule the inner narrative of, you know, whatever I was thinking about or whatever, however I felt about something. And so, and putting expectations on people and it didn't make any sense. When you say it out loud, it sounds ridiculous. Whatever the thing was, it just, you know, and that's usually how I would break myself of it.

[00:21:44] But now I try to do it all the time. I'll say it out loud to myself, like, why am I putting this expectation on this person to do this thing? Yeah. Like, this doesn't make any sense. And so every time, every time I get upset about something, it's, I methodically will immediately go, is this on me though? Like, am I, is it my fault that I'm feeling this way?

[00:22:01] Probably. And that's something that as a five I didn't do before. I would put all of that on other people and say, okay, well it's just, you just need to handle me better. Like, you know, it's all on you if you can't deal with me and like we're falling apart because of whatever it is that you are or are not doing.

[00:22:18] And um, yeah, that's obviously not fair. That's not how adults think or shouldn't. Yeah. But, but it's really hard. I think that's a hard thing for fives. I would say that's probably universally true for the most part. I mean, but I'm starting to come on the other, come out on the other side of that. I think, you know, where it's like.

[00:22:34] I consciously try to make that improvement and make that effort to open up when the opportunity is there. I think the part that I'm still struggling to learn is how to open up when the opportunity is not there. 

[00:22:45] Cody: Mm. 

[00:22:46] Josiah: You know what I mean? Like making that opportunity. Yeah. Like, you know, when you need to talk about something and like, because I also don't wanna put that on somebody.

[00:22:52] I wouldn't wanna, like, you know, unless my dad died, I wouldn't want to like, call you in the middle of the day and like vent about something. You know what I mean? And so, 'cause I don't wanna put that on you. Mm. I might call somebody at work if it's a work thing because it, it may, it pertains to them, you know, like they get it.

[00:23:06] Yeah. 

[00:23:06] Um, well 

[00:23:07] this, this is really, this brings up a good point in that I think as fives, our expectation is that of ourselves and others, is that we are independent. We can handle all of our own shit. And so we are not gonna put. Our, our stuff on anyone else. Right. We don't wanna burden anyone else. Yeah.

[00:23:26] The way that we're afraid of being burdened. Right. Exactly. And then when, when people try to do that to us, we're to, like, the expectation for me, especially in the past, has been like, I don't put my shit on you. Why are you putting your shit on me? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yes. And, and one of the things that I've learned, which I think you're getting at here, is that.

[00:23:47] That is part of connection and being in relationship is that we share, and often that means sharing each other's burdens, and it's not because we can't handle right our own stuff. It's not because like we're like, I don't share with you because I'm dependent on you to regulate my emotions. Right. I share.

[00:24:08] Because I want to be interdependent with you mm-hmm. In a relationship. Right? Right. And so it's that, it's that choosing that is, that makes the difference there. Yep. Um, and, and that is something that has taken a long time to learn and still in the process of learning that For sure. Yeah. 

[00:24:30] I'm going back through, uh.

[00:24:32] The West Wing with Madison. Mm-hmm. She's ever seen it. And I remember that the first time I ever saw that show was because a pastor that of a church that I worked at and whom I deeply wanted to be a part of, their inner group, like it, they were just, they were cool to me, cool people. And I wanted to be, and I was longing so badly for connection at that point in my life.

[00:24:56] And they introduced me to this show. And I realized, and it's hilarious to say it out loud now, especially the way that I feel about them now. But he introduced it to me because he lay like three episodes in. 

[00:25:06] He tells me that this is how he sees himself and all of his staff around him. It was like the show, the West thing.

[00:25:12] He saw himself as Jed Bartlet, the, the, the, the president, which now is hilarious to me because he is yeah, for sure a narcissist. And so, um. And, but that's how he sees himself and that's not how I see him. And so, um, and then the, the other staff matching the other, the other staff on the show that I knew there.

[00:25:31] And it's just like, and I remember thinking at the time, man, I wanna be a part of that. And now when I watch it, I still feel that way, but I realize how differently I would approach a situation like that. Like if I wanna be a part of something, I just do it. 

[00:25:46] Like yesterday, uh, was it yesterday? What is today?

[00:25:49] Yeah, yesterday we were at the soccer game and I you know, I tend to so often go there and not like say hey to everybody and talk to everybody, but I don't know if it was the gummies that I ate or like whatever, but like I was feeling extra social and so I just went up and talked to people and by the end of it I felt like I had like actually connected with to some degree and said hi to all the people I knew there and stuff.

[00:26:11] And I often would feel like when I leave those games, like, wow, I didn't really. Talk to anybody, like, did anybody even care that I was here? Like, you know what I mean? But that was on me though. Like that was probably on me because everybody else has the same shit. Like maybe they don't talk to me because they don't talk to me every time and whatever, you know?

[00:26:25] And you know, thinking about that show, like, I still feel that way, that I want to be a part of a group that, that that tight, you know, like it is just so funny how shows can set those expectations. 

[00:26:35] You, I 

[00:26:35] was 

[00:26:36] thinking about 

[00:26:36] this the other day, like, I like how much. TV shaped my expectations growing up.

[00:26:43] Yeah. Especially around relationships. Definitely. Like it's because I was so isolated as a kid and because I didn't go to school until seventh grade mm-hmm. And didn't really have many friends, we moved around a lot. Right. Like the, the relationships on TV were like, the characters on TV were my relationships.

[00:27:02] Yeah. They were the consistency in your life. Yeah. They were the CO and, yeah. Same 

[00:27:05] here. Everything I learned about relationships, pretty much I learned. Through tv, which is terrible. Terrible. That's so bad. So terrible. And talk about unrealistic expectations. Yeah. Like I, you know, I did not have a good relationship with my father growing up.

[00:27:21] Mm-hmm. And there were legitimate reasons for that. Yeah. And also I had very unrealistic expectations of what a father was like. You know what I thought a father should be like. Yeah. Um, and so. Th that and then going to school. Like I, I had all these like way over romanticized ideas. Yeah. Of what it would be like to go to school and make friends and go to prom and like, oh yeah, all, all this stuff.

[00:27:47] Where's my limo? And it was all terrible. It was not all terrible, but it was like, it was nothing at all. Like, so bland. Yeah. No flavor. It is like. Sometimes Amy and I will watch some of like those, those movies from the nineties, early two thousands. Boy, how they age and oh man, and every, every party scene.

[00:28:12] Like the teenage party scene. Oh yeah. There was never, ever a party or a dance that ever looked like that. 

[00:28:19] No. In fact, most of those parties that I see actually happened in my twenties, not in my teen years. Yeah. Nobody partied like that. Nobody had the money to party like that. Sure. Well, I also, none of my friends were rich, so like some of, usually those people have pretty good money in those movies.

[00:28:33] But I mean, even like 

[00:28:34] the, whenever they put. They, they portray prom or any kind of homecoming dance or anything like that. 

[00:28:41] Everyone's just like out dancing, partying, have a good time, and in reality, 99% of the time. Those dances are super lame. They are. And no one really wants to dance. Nobody dances. Yeah.

[00:28:52] And, and it's very awkward and not fun. 

[00:28:56] Yeah. 

[00:29:01] I, I went to a fair amount of high school dances because I was homeschooled through middle school and high school. So, but I didn't do the homeschool thing. If anybody's been listening for a while, I'm sure I've. About this before, but um, you know, I didn't do the typical whole homeschool thing.

[00:29:10] I didn't know anybody else who homeschooled when I did. All of my friends were in public school. I just kind of got to choose when I saw them. And, uh, but it also made me feel always on the outside, which is only just like pouring fuel on that fire. Mm-hmm. Uh, something that I already felt. And my parents are both, um, in that same personality type.

[00:29:27] My dad's a five and my mom's probably a four wing five if I had to guess. And so it was like. There was always this otherness that was portrayed in my own family. Like we were always all different from everybody else, but in the same way, we were different. And that almost bonded us. I maybe a little bit stronger in its own way with growing up because I always knew that my, my family gets me, which, you know, and as I've gotten older I feel less like that.

[00:29:48] They don't get me as much as they used to, but I can always be myself with them. 

[00:29:52] Cody: Mm. Yeah. And so that's 

[00:29:53] Josiah: something that's a little, that's just something I never had with anybody else, but. A lot of the dances I went to when I was in high school were kind of like that. They were like, maybe not. I mean, they were laying, they'd be in like the middle of the cafeteria, you know?

[00:30:03] Right. And like, whatever. But like. I remember many dances that were, one, everybody was dancing and two very raunchy. Like it was very R-rated,

[00:30:17] 14 year olds grinding up on each other. 

[00:30:19] Yeah. And then there's me sitting there like, why is everybody touching me? 

[00:30:23] Cody: Are you in my bubble? I don't like this. 

[00:30:25] Josiah: Oh yeah, man. I really didn't understand myself then, 

[00:30:30] but uh, I do, I do remember. This wasn't a dance. 

[00:30:34] Uh, but there was this club called, I think it was called Electric Cowboy in Marietta, Georgia.

[00:30:40] There was one here, and I punched a guy there one time, and Sunday night was family night. Which meant what if it was anything like mine? I think it was the same. It was, 

[00:30:52] I think there was 

[00:30:52] multiple of those. It was, it, it, which meant like, sounds like a strip club. Yeah. Which meant if you, you know, if you're underage, you can get in.

[00:30:59] And that was like, that was where that was where I learned to grind. That's, that's where the sex happened. That's not where the sex happened, but that's where, that's, that was my first experience of a girl dancing up on me. And it was very uncomfortable and awkward and. Yeah. Uh, and that was like, I don't know, 

[00:31:18] 13.

[00:31:20] Yeah. When, when I was 13, I went to a, a middle school dance, I guess, or I was seventh grade, so that's 13, right? 12, 13, I think. Uh, I don't know. I was 13 in ninth grade. I don't know what, I skipped a grade. Oh, of course you did. So, um, I remember when I was around 13 and I had this girl come up to me that I did not know.

[00:31:43] Did not know this girl, and she came to me and said that she wanted to lick me from head to toe. Oh my God. That was my response. 

[00:31:51] Cody: I looked at her and said, oh, why would you wanna do that? 

[00:31:55] Josiah: And immediately I thought, oh, I, there's no way I'm licking anybody from head toe. I don't know where all those parts have 

[00:32:00] been, but think about like so much of my idea of friendships and.

[00:32:09] Just like social dynamics was shaped by the show friends. Oh, for sure. , It did always make me want that group. It like made me idolize that idea of that tight-knit group. They just walk into each 

[00:32:25] other's apartments. Yeah. It's like that Seinfeld, you know? Yeah. You just have that person there. Oh, they're here now. Yeah. And you might get that in like a frat house, but like, you know, which I also didn't experience.

[00:32:34] No, I did kind of, I lived in a house with eight guys, I think. I don't know if I ever told that story where I lived in the attic. Oh, yes. Yeah. I lived in the attic, like a hobbit. They called me the, I lived in the hobbit hole. That's what they called it. But there was eight guys in that place. Two. Two, four of them shared a room, you know, you know you've done that too.

[00:32:52] And uh, yeah, it was, it was a lot like that. People were just coming and going all the time. And what I actually found was I hated that. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I lived Because you never knew what you were getting. I lived in, lived in the tel, yeah. In college there was six of us in a duplex. And uh, is that when all the roaches.

[00:33:09] Yeah, it was like seventies shag carpet. That hasn't been changed since the seventies. Oh yeah. We had roaches living in, in our microwave. Yeah. So you'd open the microwave to put something in there and they'd scatter, like scatter up. It was so gross. Dude. You see that They survived. I, I don't know, man. The roaches, well, I guess they weren't in the box.

[00:33:27] Well, how were they in the box? Don't know. Microwaves are escaping. Somebody has cancer right now. God. Yeah. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. It's not, it's actually not fun, but I've always wanted to, I got, I've had little tiny bits of it. 

[00:36:29] Like our, we have, uh, two friends who, um, we actually, first time we ever met, uh, one of them, she lived across the hallway from us and that's how we met was just proximity.

[00:36:38] Yeah. Which is how all the people and friends met technically, you know? Yeah. This is all proximity and, um, and I think that those people are usually the people that you do feel that comfortable with, where it's just like. You know, oh, they're here now. Like, it's fine. Um, and I definitely felt that way with them and, uh, but only after a long, long time it got to that point.

[00:36:57] But also, you know, one of them I like, I get along with her so well, we think so similarly, that it's really just easy to hang out and I don't have to, I don't fail. I don't have any expectations at all on the situation. And so that's always really nice. But, and then they moved with us to another apartment.

[00:37:14] Because then her boyfriend moved here and so then they were together and they moved over there to the same, the second place we were at that and then lived in the next building. So that wasn't quite the same. And then the last apartment we were in, they lived, ended up moving across the hall like directly across.

[00:37:30] Right before you For like a month. Yeah. Right before you moved here. Because we had talked about how cheap it was to live there and it was pretty easy. So finally they're like, we're gonna go there. I guess it was kinda their backup plan, so they ended up in the one directly across the hall. The hall from us.

[00:37:41] And uh, yeah, it actually was pretty great, like being able to go back and forth or like we'd see each other all the time or we'd be able to like. Ask for salt or whatever you need. I don't know, like, just random. There was, I don't remember what we asked for, but there was a time, actually it was them usually asking us for like, do you have like a cup of this, uh, milk or something?

[00:37:57] And I was like, yeah, we do. But yeah, so it was just a, a lot of back and forth and I actually did really like it and I was like, damn, I only got it for like a month. But, uh, but yeah, maybe we'll get it in the, maybe we'll get it in the neighbors. We'll see. But I, I don't. I think of like, I think of like the shows that, like, I remember when you made me watch the OC how much more I understood you at that time in your life.

[00:38:23] Because a lot of the ways what a, what a statement. A lot of the ways that you would act and the things you would say, your humor. I, I realized it came from that show. Like a lot of it was reflected in your personality and so, yep. And then, and I don't know if I, 

[00:38:37] I basically took on the persona of Seth Cohen.

[00:38:40] Yeah, you did for a little while 

[00:38:42] there. Is that also the expectation of where you, you like what a dad was, was his dad? Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. That was a big 

[00:38:48] one. 

[00:38:49] Yeah. So I was the troubled. Friend, you are the Ryan.

[00:38:57] I remember watching that show and I was like, I wonder if that's how he sees me. Yeah, the oc, that was a really funny one. But yeah, I don't know. I didn't want Scrubs, like the best Friends of Scrubs that like laid back show. I really, um, I watched all of that show and definitely was like, man, I just want a friend like that.

[00:39:14] And at the time of watching it, I kind of had one that was like that, but he ended up being. Shitty as they do when you're younger. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, you know, it's just kind of funny how that works, but those expectations are there. And I think sometimes still, I mean, I still think about like friends, like I was saying, like people living across the hall like that, that openness that you have with people, you're just like yourself and like everybody just laughs at you.

[00:39:36] That's just, you know, Chandler being Chandler, you know? And so it's like having that kind of, I don't know if that's what it was, the lack of expectation. And then you flip to the other side of that, the West Wing where they all. Expected so much from them of themselves to be there for each other and to be there obviously to like serve the president or whatever bullshit.

[00:39:54] And so they, but every time what they would find is that when they thought that they were a disappointment, the, the leader of the group, the president in this case was always there to be like you. I got your back like. I trust you. I believe in you. That's why you're here. Mm-hmm. And um, there's that reassurance that they get in those characters that I'm watching it this time around and I'm realizing that's actually, I think what I wanted was like that deep connection that is, I.

[00:40:20] That comes from both sides. 

[00:40:22] Yeah. 

[00:40:22] And it's kind of, it's like kind of, you know, exemplified in that show in that way. You kind of do see it coming from both sides, but you don't always see that all you, most times you jump into the middle of a friendship or relationship where they're like at that place where they're just like, so, you know, comfortable with each other.

[00:40:36] They're just back and forth and I actually feel like that's us now. Yeah. We kind of like fell into it. 

[00:40:43] Yeah. Yeah. It's. It's, I've, I've gone through a couple of periods in my life where I've had people that I feel like I can be myself around, but, but there were big gaps in between Yeah. Those mm-hmm. And a a lot of it too is just, it's, it's more me.

[00:41:02] Accepting myself. Yeah. And being okay with myself first. 

[00:41:07] Yeah. 

[00:41:07] And then, and then, and then basically allowing myself to be vulnerable enough to start expressing that around other people. Yeah. 

[00:41:16] Realizing that so much of those expectations 

[00:41:18] comes from insecurity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and just also, like you and I have been through a lot.

[00:41:24] We have, and we're still friends. We have, yeah. 

[00:41:27] I, I have many times. Said, well, not many times, but I have at times said like, I remember I was talking to my mom a long time ago about, and us being friends for so long, and I was like, I think there, there gets to be a point where I stop thinking of you as a friend and think of you more as like that extended family member.

[00:41:44] Cody: Yeah. 

[00:41:44] Josiah: And it was the post like COVID thing, the post, all that stuff where I started thinking that way about, it's like, well. No matter what happens between us, like we're still gonna be there for each other. So we will, we will figure it out. Like we gotta, we gotta work through this. Um, and there's a, that's a different level of commitment that I've ever had with anybody else.

[00:42:02] So like that's, that's something that I I definitely appreciate a lot more at this point in my life where I didn't before because I didn't really know how to handle that kind of like, 'cause I think we were always kind of like that. Like we, from the moment we met, we were. Very connected. Like we just, I think we got each other and we're just like, oh, okay.

[00:42:20] We, we know each other. We 

[00:42:21] had the same phone and the same computer and like the same backpack or something like that, 

[00:42:26] same clothes. Like I'll be, look at us right now. Um, yeah, no, and you know what's really funny is like, and this is, this is, this is what's so funny about it. So yesterday at the soccer game, you had a friend come up to you and talk to you.

[00:42:40] Yeah. And I, I had the thought. I don't look like any of Josiah's other friends. And I had that, and I, my mind went to that perspective of how you must see me versus anybody else. And I started comparing myself to people, but not even in a really conscious way. It was just like I, I had the thought, but it literally just popped into my head again.

[00:42:57] 'cause I just now remember that like I thought about how I look compared to you or your friends that you know. And I also too, this is a side note, but like, I also don't think the people that are my age, I, I don't feel like I look like them. What do you mean? Like most people? My age, I think, oh, they gotta be like 46, 47, late forties, or maybe going into like, they're, they're inching towards 50 and I'm like, oh shit.

[00:43:22] They're like 37, 38. So I look like them. Like it just, they look more like, it's like when you watch Mad Men and, and you see Don Draper and you think, wow. Like what an accomplished older man. And he realized in that show he started out and he was like. 31 or 30 in the first parts of those seasons. And I don't see him that way in that show.

[00:43:41] And to this day I look at it and I'm like, I still look at him as older than me and like more accomplished and more like. There I'm projecting things onto him, but like also too, like his face, I just don't think he looks that young. And so, um, I think I have this weird like, warped perception of 

[00:43:56] other 

[00:43:56] people age 

[00:43:57] wise.

[00:43:57] So basically you think me and all my friends are really old and you don't look old. 

[00:44:02] No. No, but I mean, I mean, that's part of it, I guess. I don't think that you look that way either. Some people just look older, but not like. Not like in a bad way. It's like older, like the way that you saw your dad when you were a kid and that he was only 40, like he wasn't old, but you saw him as older, and I think it was like that projection of where you thought you would be at this point in your life.

[00:44:27] Mm-hmm. I think those are still tied to expectations and insecurity. I think that that has a lot to do with it because the next thing that pops into my head every time I've ever thought that about anybody is, wow, I really thought I'd be. I thought I would be at this point in my life where I thought they were, like what I was projecting onto them that they're this older, like accomplished.

[00:44:47] You know, come into themselves, you know, like, oh, they figured out, you know, they're more, whatever, all the things, they check all the boxes and just look like, like I think about the companies that I've worked for that like, especially tech companies where it's like they're CEOs and CFOs and whatever, and you're like, wow, they're so accomplished.

[00:45:05] And you realize you're two years older than them, dude. 

[00:45:08] Yeah. I, I had a conversation last year. With a guy and he, you know, he had already like built a, a local company here, like a really successful tech company. Yeah. And, and then sold it. And then started like a, a VC fund and is running this thing.

[00:45:30] And I was, I was talking with him and, and then realized that he and I are the same age. Yeah. And that he basically started that company when he was like. 21 or 23, like, like, wow. Something crazy like that. I'm like, I could barely wipe my own ass at like, like, yeah, I was such an idiot. Like I wasn't even washing my own dishes.

[00:45:53] Like, so it's just, I, I get that. Maybe it's all relative. Like 

[00:45:58] it's all, it's all relative. Yeah, for sure. It is. Well, and I think, uh, you know, I think about too, like a lot of it is just opportunity and what people are given, you know? Mm-hmm. You know, it's like a lot of the people that I think, oh wow, they're doing so well for themselves.

[00:46:12] Like the guy that I was just thinking about when I was talking about the tech companies I worked for, I know that the, the, you know, the CEO and founder of the company was about my age, but he started companies really early because his parents had a lot of money and they passed it down to him, and he was able to do that.

[00:46:29] You know, he had less to lose when he was risking all of those things. And so it's just like, sometimes that affects it, you know? I think people are just in different trajectories. They have to go through different things and, and also like, 

[00:46:42] which area of their life are they focusing on? Like, they may be more successful in business, but they're relationships are a mess.

[00:46:48] Sure. Definitely. Definitely. I mean, I, I basically, you know. A lot of my twenties and thirties were trying to build a marriage and a career at the same time. Sure. And, and that was basically my only focus. And then I didn't have friends and then, so then I had, you know, had to start, you know, building friendships again and, but you can only do so many things at once. 

[00:47:13] Yeah. 

[00:47:14] And I, I know, I know some successful people who you know, got really high up in the career ladder and then their wife cheated on them. Yeah. And you know, like, and, and so it's just, you know, it, it, it's, you can't, you can't assume. Yeah. Where they are just kind of, we see the Instagram version of everybody's life.

[00:47:40] Totally. Yeah, for 

[00:47:40] sure. Um, we see what they want us to see as everybody is, and I think that yeah, of course that's, that's the case. And I think about, like, I, I factor a lot of my life has been factoring family into that too. 'cause I don't know, I, for most of my life, I didn't know how that was gonna look in my life either.

[00:47:55] Mm-hmm. Um, you know, but yeah, I mean, I think that I used to be, I found myself lately. 

[00:48:03] Feeling the re, the regret that I've been feeling a lot lately with myself has been not being more focused in my twenties and thirties than what I wanted to do and pouring that, that energy into it, because now I'm in a place where I'm deep into a career.

[00:48:19] I don't love. And don't really know how to take those skills and do something else with it. Like I pretty much have, if I want to get out of sales, I have to start over. Like there's not a lot of that, that, that, that transfers over that I can tell. And so I think that I was, I was, I've been doing a lot of that trying to think about like, and a lot of that goes back to expectations of where I wanted to be and how and, and or, and, and how far I've, I've gotten off of that path and how do I want to change that and do something else.

[00:48:46] And it's just. I don't, I don't know. I don't know how to do it really. So I'm kind of in that place lately too. And so in some ways it's like, you know, you were doing, you were focusing on all those things and doing all those things. But I, when I look, when we talk about your path through that, your, what you've done, it all was in, at least in the same direction for the most part.

[00:49:06] Like you, you had little bits of deviation, but you're in the same field for a lot of that. I mean, if by field 

[00:49:13] you mean tech, then Yes. 

[00:49:14] I mean, you did like coding and developing to being a pro, a product manager. A product manager is overseeing people who are developing a coding. Like it's in the same world.

[00:49:22] It's moving up the ladder, but in, in various directions. But it's only minor pivots. It's not a complete 180 or 90 degrees to another. Another industry. 

[00:49:31] Yeah. But I also started college as a music major. Right. And then became a youth ministry major. Yeah. And then did documentary filmmaking and then got into tech.

[00:49:40] So yeah, I did a lot of that stuff. But 

[00:49:42] imagine if you went to school. This is where this is. This is how you could have taken my path. Imagine if you'd gone to school and gotten, did the youth minister thing, and then when you got outta school, you did that for 10 years. Oh, thanks. And then had to switch. So a lot of that, you know, luck.

[00:49:58] Luckily I started dating Amy my, my last semester of college and she told me she did not wanna marry a pastor. So that was that. Yeah. 

[00:50:07] I could have done, I would've done well to have heard that early in life. Yeah. Earlier in life, um, because yeah, now I've got those 10 years I can't get back that it would've been really great formidable bull years to get into an industry of something that I actually enjoy doing.

[00:50:19] But yeah, I don't know. It's just, it's projections of insecurities and creating those expectations around it. And then that inner narrative is just constantly going and saying like, man. Sucks so bad that you hate this, doesn't it? Man? Wouldn't it be great if you had made different decisions? You know?

[00:50:34] And so it's like, and I don't like being the hindsight guy. I don't wanna be always looking backwards and thinking about it. I don't even like that part of myself. I don't even wanna think that way. And so it's like, I think when I do, I just beat myself up about it from all different directions. I'm like, why am I even thinking about this?

[00:50:50] It's silly to even, like, what, what can I do right now? Like, what can I what? What steps can I take right now? And I think that's kind of propelled me into a place where I never thought I'd be this guy, but like I, I feel like lately I've been the, the, um, like seizing things head on guy. Mm-hmm. Like when something happens that I don't wanna do, and I'm like.

[00:51:10] Now I gotta do this thing for work. I just immediately do it. Yeah. And I don't put it off at all. And my whole day, all day, from, especially with work is spent doing the thing right then like, oh, you need to do this thing. I'm sending this email about it right now. I need this inventory. I need to move it right now.

[00:51:25] And I find that I forget a lot less things and I am less disappointed in myself. But, um. I also feel like I'm at least a little bit more successful in that way. And also fighting my five ness to procrastinate and like detach from everything. And just like woe is me all the time. I'm a little more proactive in that way.

[00:51:45] So hopefully I'm more proactive at our friendship. I don't, it's as we go along, I'll keep getting more proactive. Yeah, you are. Yeah. Yeah. Try to make the effort. One of these days, I'll learn how to respond to videos. I don't know. I don't know what I'd say. Oh, thanks. I'll watch it. Maybe if I can remember it.

[00:52:07] Even just a thumbs up is, is is a good start. Thumbs up, 

[00:52:09] react. You know, that's also a great idea. Sometimes people send me things and I'm like working and I'm like, oh, I'll get to this later. And then I just immediately put it away and then when it's on, it's now a red text. It's never coming back. Yeah.

[00:52:20] Until you say something to me again. I'm like, oh, I should watch that video. And then eventually it slides out of out a few.

[00:52:30] Okay. 

[00:52:30] So I don't know what your expectations were for this episode, dear listener, but

[00:52:39] Cody: there's some little nuggets in there I think. I think we, I think we got there. I think it is a win that we. Still came and had this conversation for the third time. The third time, yeah. We didn't give up on it. Yeah. Well, and the topic morphed over time. I think it got to a place where we could actually talk about it, so that helps.

[00:52:59] Josiah: But yeah. And hopefully you're hearing this right now. 

[00:53:02] Cody: Hopefully it makes 

[00:53:03] Josiah: it Yes. We're not there 

[00:53:04] Cody: yet. 

[00:53:04] Josiah: Yeah, that's true. There's, we'll see how post-production goes. There's still some hurdles to go. Yeah. 

[00:53:10] All right. Well, that's it. That's all right. Alright, next time. See you 

[00:53:13] next time. 

[00:53:13] Cody: Look, bye. 

[00:53:14] Josiah: Bye.

[00:53:55] Cody: Better fucking be there. Oh yeah.