Ep. 49 - Five Moms

[00:00:00] Sam: Melissa,

[00:00:01] Melissa: Sam,

[00:00:03] Sam: what is the most type five moment you've ever had as a mother?

[00:00:08] Melissa: I think right now my preteens who are trolling me about people in the family getting hurt because I'm a self pre five and they've picked up on my tendency to ask about things more than people. So they'll be like, mom, I hit my head on the shelf, and then the other one will be like, oh no, is this shelf okay?

[00:00:30] Sam: they know you love them, but I would imagine you've also been doing that for their whole lives. Hence the joke.

[00:00:36] Melissa: I, I make sure people are okay, but then I do care about. The shelf, you know, and or windshield and or whatever. So it's a both, it's a both and I think. Yeah.

[00:01:24] Sam: Um,

[00:01:25] Melissa: Well, I'm so excited. We're doing,

[00:01:27] Sam: episode together. 

Introducing the Hosts

[00:01:28] Sam: I guess we should introduce ourselves to the people. Um, I'm Sam, some people know me 'cause I've been on before. I'm a sexuality researcher and Enneagram and sexuality coach, I'm super happy to be here with my friend Melissa. Melissa, can you introduce yourself?

[00:01:46] Melissa: hi, I'm Melissa. Um, I am an Enneagram and life coach, and I run, um, my social media, which is, which is enneagram paths.com and all things healing, moving forward, finding new, interesting things to talk about.

[00:02:07] Sam: Um, this is an Enneagram five lady takeover of

[00:02:10] Melissa: Yeah.

[00:02:11] Sam: podcast. We kicked out the dudes. It's All Ladies today.

[00:02:17] Melissa: I think it's about time, right?

[00:02:19] Sam: So we're

[00:02:20] Melissa: Yeah. 

Motherhood as an Enneagram Five

[00:02:20] Melissa: You were talking about motherhood,

[00:02:22] Sam: um, but also you know, what it's

[00:02:24] Melissa: like

[00:02:25] Sam: an Enneagram five woman as a mother, and a bunch of other things. Whatever we feel like talking

[00:02:30] Melissa: about,

[00:02:31] Sam: where should we start? We have lots of questions for each other.

[00:02:34] Melissa: yeah. I mean, I don't know if everybody knows, but Sam and I ask each other questions a lot. We send each other voice texts and they're like, I have a question. I have a question. So this is just an extension of what we do all the time and pick each other's brains. But now we're gonna kind of focus on motherhood and fe being a female five.

[00:02:56] And, yeah. Do you wanna start first and ask questions of me, or do you want me to ask? Um,

[00:03:01] Sam: Um, I

[00:03:01] Melissa: I can start. Okay.

[00:03:03] Sam: these are things we talk about normally, so it's almost as if people just have a inside window into our phones,

[00:03:10] Melissa: Yeah, because we,

[00:03:12] Sam: I'd

[00:03:12] Melissa: I say the biggest,

[00:03:13] Sam: we talk about are, you know, like Enneagram generally, because we're both Enneagram professionals, but then motherhood would be almost maybe a second biggest or, and then just what it's like to be a female.

[00:03:23] Five is probably also the second biggest. So

[00:03:26] Melissa: yeah. Yes.

[00:03:28] Sam: our minds.

Challenges and Unique Qualities of Type Five Mothers

[00:03:29] Sam: So, um, Melissa, what challenges do you think type five mothers face in particular?

[00:03:38] Melissa: I think a lot. Um, so many. Um, I think first and foremost just what motherhood the word means, and it's different with each society and culture, right? And so in our Western kind of. Culture, what motherhood means for women is this sort of, um, nurturing, loving, always there, but also works right now and this space and time right?

[00:04:18] Also has a job and also has a home and also takes care of things and is emotionally intelligent while also getting absolutely everything done. And even that description makes me feel overwhelmed as a vibe. And I think as a woman and as a mother, um, it's been really difficult to mesh my kind of mothering in with the way that lots of other people mother, I feel like I look different and feel different and respond differently and talk differently.

[00:04:59] Then everybody else. And it's, it can be isolating to feel that, uh, alien, if you will, especially, you know, when you're doing such an important job that you care so much about, like, raising kids and being there for them. So, yeah, I think the, the emotionality piece is a challenge, right? If, if mothers are the nurturing figure, what does that look like as a five mom, right?

[00:05:27] That is a challenge because, I mean, every five woman is different, but, um, I have had to figure out what it means for me to be emotionally available to my kids when I can, when I can't, how I express emotions. 'cause I wanna teach them about having emotions and talking about them and somatically experiencing them, and.

[00:05:52] Uh, I don't fit the mold, but I think I do a pretty darn good job. So that's like the first thing I think. I don't know. Does that make sense to you?

[00:06:00] Sam: So much sense. Um, I

[00:06:02] Melissa: Feel

[00:06:03] Sam: way, of course. Um, I

[00:06:07] Melissa: basically.

[00:06:07] Sam: I started talking to you and then also to my friend and colleague, Lindsay Frazier, who's a nine. Um, I thought that I was the only person. I mean, I didn't really think that, but some part of me felt like I was the only person who's this kind of mother, the kind you're sort of describing and. It is really lonely and really isolating. I'm curious, 'cause you said my kind of motherhood doesn't fit, doesn't mesh with the, like the enculturated ideal of what motherhood is supposed to mean. What, and you started talking about it, but what is your kind of motherhood? What does your brand of motherhood look like and how is it different?

[00:06:47] Melissa: Um, well I'm a nerd and I'm weird and I love that about myself. I think it was really, um, it's like, do you know how it's like you expect something but then when it happens it's still surprising. So I expected that, especially when my kids were little, um, that it would be challenging to be a mom, that it would be an overwhelming, like sensory experience.

[00:07:17] They'd be all over me. It would be constant demands and needs. I expected that, but I didn't know how much it would impact my need to think and to not that you don't have to think around kids. I'm not trying to say like, if, if motherhood is your highest calling, that like, it's not intellectual 'cause it.

[00:07:36] So is it just wasn't for me. I loved the littles phase, but it was also a space where I had to figure out how to work freelance jobs and do writing and have other stimulation for my mind because diapers and food and messes and tantrums and screaming and laundry, like it was just for me, it didn't feel on brand for what I was supposed to love.

[00:08:09] And I loved pieces and parts of it, but I just had to find, again, like my own way of doing it and then be at peace with that. Like not judge myself for needing to work at least part-time when I had littles. And then as they've gotten older, that's gotten easier 'cause they go to school and all of that stuff now.

[00:08:28] But, um. That's, I think one of the biggest things is the intellectual stimulation.

[00:08:37] Sam: I love that you said it didn't feel on brand, like for, for you or what you are supposed to love or the kinds of things you loved. 

Balancing Parenthood and Personal Needs

[00:08:45] Sam: Um, I, I know you have questions for me too, but I honestly, I could just interview you for hours because, um, we should probably say I have younger kids than you do. My oldest is five, um, and my youngest is one. Um, and here's our 11 and 12. Is that right?

[00:09:00] Melissa: Uh, 12 and 13.

[00:09:02] Sam: 12 and 13. Oh

[00:09:03] Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I feel

[00:09:05] Sam: I really look up to you as a mother,

[00:09:07] Melissa: you should not do that.

[00:09:08] Sam: you've, um, well in the sense of like, not modeling myself after you, but in the sense that you've come further along the journey and figured a bunch of things out that I, I'm just figuring out. So it's like very, uh, um, and rewarding to talk to you about this.

[00:09:25] Melissa: Well, I'll do the best I can. We're just in different faces. I know how it feels to talk to parents that have like older teens and young adults, and that feels like, okay, helps me ground and kind of figure out what might be coming next. So yeah, I get what you're saying.

[00:09:41] Sam: Yes.

[00:09:42] Melissa: I feel like I haven't heard

[00:09:44] Sam: enough people, or

[00:09:45] Melissa: any people

[00:09:45] Sam: really say

[00:09:47] Melissa: say,

[00:09:47] Sam: just said, which is, you know, I didn't. Like love every aspect of it, or not every aspect was a good fit for something that I would love. And just the more people who, the more moms and parents who say stuff like that, the less people are gonna shame themselves.

[00:10:02] But heard that narrative out there much, and I feel like I really needed it.

[00:10:09] Melissa: I think I still need it. Like it's, it's, uh, a little example of that is. My kids, I have insomnia and always have. And so they learned real fast to go to dad when they would wake up in the middle of the night and that's still the case. And it's like so counter-cultural. Of course you go to the mom, but like they go to dad and I have to like actively be like, that's okay.

[00:10:35] It's all right. Like it's fine. We each take the things that we're good at and not good at and trade it off. And they don't have to be the quintessential mother in every aspect. It's okay to figure out what works and what doesn't work.

[00:10:50] Sam: I love that. Um, a, an example of that for me is that, um, I'm self preservation blind. Um, and I do not cook. Like I

[00:10:59] Melissa: I

[00:11:00] Sam: cook a

[00:11:00] Melissa: few things, but I really don't,

[00:11:01] Sam: how to cook. And my husband cooks in grocery shops and so anytime people are talking about good meals and my kids are like, daddy made us a really good dinner.

[00:11:10] Melissa: you know,

[00:11:11] Sam: again,

[00:11:11] Melissa: it shouldn't.

[00:11:12] Sam: countercultural, but it is a little bit,

[00:11:14] Melissa: Yeah.

[00:11:15] Sam: being okay with that.

[00:11:16] Melissa: And I love these so that, 'cause I don't like cooking either, I just am better at it than my husband. But I do not enjoy that dinner happens every day. So I feel you

[00:11:25] Sam: Yeah. And the days, no, once in a while I do cook dinner. And the days that I do, I'm so much more frazzled. Like I'm, um, learning this about myself now, but preparing ahead is much better for me. So, for example, putting like stuff in the crockpot in the morning I can handle, but the whole coming home from school, like afterschool activities.

[00:11:46] Chaos, chaos, chaos. Now cook dinner, clean up dinner, like I just end up miserable, overwhelmed, sensory overload and

[00:11:55] Melissa: yelling and

[00:11:56] Sam: my husband's better at cooking and he's an eight, so he does not get overwhelmed as much. And it just makes sense for us him to cook, obviously. But know, if I think too hard about it, I can get into shame and

[00:12:08] Melissa: guilt,

[00:12:09] Sam: and

[00:12:09] Melissa: guilt.

[00:12:09] Sam: been a big part of my motherhood journey, I would say.

[00:12:13] Melissa: Yeah, I would say that exact same thing except take out the eight husband and put in that I am doing all of that, but that like I have an assertive type. My husband's a type three and too assertive at the moment. We think kids, and they're all up in my business and I cannot multitask and I would get so frazzled and so upset.

[00:12:33] So they have literally learned, and I'm like, now I'm just blunt about it. I'll just be like, go away, walk away. I had to over and overstate boundaries if you want. If this needs to happen and I'm doing it, like leave me alone. You don't get to come into the dinner table until it's really actually ready and when I have to clean up all that stuff, all of you exit.

[00:12:56] My husband does all the ironing, all of the prep, like for outfits for the next day. Like they know to like. Like, don't talk to me until, and I felt a lot of guilt and shame about that too. And I had to like work through not feeling that way and being like, no, we just need to accept. But yeah, I, I think going back to your question, that is part of like the challenge of being a type five mom is the awareness of what other people are doing and how like air quotes, it's supposed to be done and that awareness can actually, cause I feel like extra guilt and shame because we can't turn off our observational skills of both what's happening with other people and then what we are doing.

[00:13:42] And I feel like it creates just like an added layer. I hope this episode.

[00:13:48] Sam: other people besides just me, but, and that is so helpful, what you just said about making everyone leave. Um, I. Because my five-year-old's just getting old enough that I can start to set those type of boundaries. Um, my three-year-old sort of sometimes can follow them and obviously my 1-year-old can't.

[00:14:07] But, um, where I started to say like, if I'm cooking, I'll be like, um, I'm cooking. You need to go play. And

[00:14:15] Melissa: Last night was

[00:14:16] Sam: They got in a fight, my two oldest got in a fight and I had, I put them in timeout in different rooms and it was silent and I was like, oh, well now I can do it.

[00:14:25] Melissa: mm-hmm.

[00:14:26] Sam: that is great

[00:14:27] Melissa: Advice well learned by trial of fire.

[00:14:32] Sam: Yeah. Okay.

[00:14:34] Melissa: So I feel we're,

[00:14:35] Sam: a lot about, um, being different and kind of, not exactly deficiencies, but just like different ways of being, but like, conversely, what do you think, um, the unique positive qualities are that type five mothers bring to the table?

[00:14:51] Melissa: um, I think the ability to truly listen. In a neutral yet extremely loving way. I feel like mom, five moms have the unique superpower of really desiring their children to have space to become who they are and possibly, possibly less than other types, wanting to put expectations onto them about who they should be.

[00:15:22] So I feel like the ability to listen to your children gives you information about who they are and who they're becoming and developing into. And when it's taken in with neutrality and care, then you can reflect back to them what they need, right? Like you can create a space or, or, uh, even if it's something about sensory for them or foods they like, or sports they wanna do or not do, or even just what they need in like an emotional interaction, listening intently.

[00:15:56] Really helps that relationship thrive. I also think, uh, especially my oldest, my son is adopted, so that just comes with it tons of deep hard conversations that we've been having since he was little. And I have noticed my husband is a three that I, not that he's not good at tons of things 'cause he is obviously he's a three.

[00:16:25] Um, I'm really good at hard conversations. I am really good at paying attention to energy, at noticing when is the right time to insert in, when is the right time to leave it be for a while. And I'm really good at, um. Saying the hard things in a loving way and knowing what is age appropriate and how to word things not even in a premeditated way.

[00:16:51] Actually in that kind of like, almost move to eight, that five eight, like gut flow. I think five moms are really gifted at that. Um, I know you have little ones, but I, I can pick up moments of that even when they were little, so I don't know if, if you've experienced that as well.

[00:17:11] Sam: Um, I have, and actually recently my 3-year-old who's my most um, of the three and the most sensitive, I think kind of just saying things in passing about how she felt. I, she gets, she's a middle child. She's the, the quietest, like she gets looked over a lot

[00:17:31] Melissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:32] Sam: and I don't, I don't overlook her ever, like when she speaks and everyone else is speaking louder, so no one hears her.

[00:17:38] I hear her.

[00:17:39] Melissa: Hmm. That makes me so emotional. Like,

[00:17:42] Sam: too.

[00:17:43] Melissa: like, oh my gosh. Like, heck yeah. That's what it means to be a five mom. Right? Like seeing our children. And that's, uh,

[00:17:55] Sam: thought of this if you hadn't brought it up, but now that you brought it up, I realize that I'd do that.

[00:18:00] Melissa: I wouldn't have brought it up if you hadn't asked the question, so.

[00:21:29] Sam: Um, this is a really hard question for me, this one about like the unique positive qualities because I spent so much of my children's early years just feeling like a total failure and like, you know, something, I'm like the worst mom in the world, you know, have a lot of issues with rage. Basically the, the thing that five is tend not to experience until they're put in a situation where they can't escape it, which parenthood is a perfect situation like that. Um, and then our sensory sensitivities and stuff getting overloaded and then we'll kind of like lash out. That's something like a lesser known quality of fives. 'cause once again, like we avoid. to the, getting to that point, usually if we can. So people often don't see that, um, people will see it with their five children.

[00:22:18] Like, um, parents I've talked to have type five children with the, like the five child will freak out and yell and you know, once in a while just builds up and builds up and then you spill over. And I had that happening a lot and yelling, still do. Um. anyway, I

[00:22:32] Melissa: I.

[00:22:32] Sam: a lot of time thinking about my, my negative qualities, but because we were doing this episode, I put a little thought into it I wanna share three more actually.

[00:22:43] One is, um, it's goes along with what you said about listening, but um, remembering

[00:22:51] Melissa: Generally

[00:22:52] Sam: fives have an excellent memory. Of course we have mom brain now, so that

[00:22:56] Melissa: speaking,

[00:22:56] Sam: doesn't help. But I know which kid likes broccoli and which doesn't, which one likes lasagna and which doesn't. Every single thing like that, I track it.

[00:23:08] Um, I also have a stepdaughter who's older. I track everything that's going on with her and you know, my husband, her own father's, like, what's your major? And again, you know, she's in college and I'm like, it's this and this.

[00:23:19] Melissa: what's wrong with you?

[00:23:20] Sam: I

[00:23:20] Melissa: I

[00:23:21] Sam: everything about them. And you know, that's one of five's love languages is to remember things about

[00:23:27] Melissa: Yes. I'm so glad you said that. So true. Yeah,

[00:23:31] Sam: they can grow up, you know, with that, reminding them that, that we care about them. So I think memory is one of the, one of the positive things that we bring and that goes right hand in hand with what you shared about listening.

[00:23:45] Melissa: I totally agree. And would also just like to say that like. Uh, in my kids' younger years and even I have assertive children. And so it gets to that point at certain where it's just like, try to be chill. Try to be chill, try, and then you just, the rage comes out. And I had to, when I was, had littles also work through that and figure that out and spend a lot of time being negative about myself until, you know, I went to therapy, I learned about Enneagram and all this stuff.

[00:24:18] And so the facts helped me make sense of, of my emotions, which, surprise, surprise. But yeah. Uh, so just wanna say that right there with you, with having to work through that. I guess lesser known, talked about thing, about fives, that we really try to keep it chill and then sometimes it builds to we, we can't just like any other person in the whole entire world, right?

[00:24:40] Like we're just humans. Um, and that, yeah, thanks for saying that about memory. I don't think I would've. Clocked that had you not said it, but you're totally right. Like, and that's how, not just my, like children with my friends. I remember everything they tell me. Like I hardly ever, I forget a lot of other things, but like when it comes to like my relationships, I remember and that's so important for kids.

[00:25:06] So yeah. Thanks for bringing that up. That was cool.

[00:25:10] Sam: Yeah, that's one. Um, another one I thought about is our enthusiasm for learning and our curiosity. So as you know, my oldest is learning to read now, I am genuinely so excited about it. Like every time we sit down to do reading lesson, like I'm so enthusiastic and positive. And I think a lot of people don't have patience for that kind of thing.

[00:25:34] But when it comes to learning, I think fives are really great. Mother mothers and parents.

[00:25:41] Melissa: I agree. No notes. Perfection. Um, the other one I was thinking about, which

[00:25:49] Sam: really

[00:25:49] Melissa: is interesting,

[00:25:50] Sam: because it's a, um, it kind of

[00:25:52] Melissa: goes against

[00:25:52] Sam: you said but also goes with

[00:25:54] Melissa: mm-hmm. Which

[00:25:55] Sam: um, our sort of anti-authoritarian, like just

[00:25:59] Melissa: is,

[00:26:01] Sam: I really don't care what other families are doing, like what other kids are doing. If my kid wants to dress herself like in a like wacky, I support that. If they want, like different. I

[00:26:18] Melissa: I mean, it goes with what you said

[00:26:19] Sam: guilt.

[00:26:20] Melissa: about I do,

[00:26:21] Sam: the guilt enculturation about what mothers are supposed to be. So that's why this is kind of an interesting dichotomy. But I

[00:26:28] Melissa: I don't.

[00:26:29] Sam: the need to do the parenting trends.

[00:26:31] I like, for example, I co-slept with all three of my ki kids when they were babies, even though that's sort of coming into vogue now. But when my oldest was born, it was like still super controversial. I dug into the research really deeply on that and the scientific consensus is actually slightly in favor of it.

[00:26:50] It's more like neutral. It's actually not as negative as people think, but the um, like the public health messaging is, was against it at the time. I don't know if it is anymore, but I was

[00:26:59] Melissa: Like, I don't give a fuck.

[00:27:00] Sam: Like

[00:27:01] Melissa: This is what

[00:27:02] Sam: right to me and my baby. This is what I'm doing. I did my own research, uh, and I'm like that about everything.

[00:27:08] You know, anything that's right for them. I don't care if other people think it's wrong or weird. If, you know, I've done my research and my gut says it's right, I'll do it. And I think that's something you need that five moms bring. I.

[00:27:22] Melissa: I agree. I think I have an extra, I have a different added layer, not extra, I'm just a different, uh, flavor because my son who is adopted is black and so. I have had to pay attention more than I normally am wired to in any way, shape or form about stuff like that because of safety. Um, just paying attention to what's, how people are treating him, what's going on in terms of racism, unfortunately.

[00:27:53] And so that is there, but if we took, but it's like the dichotomy. It's like what you said at the exact same time. I would, I don't care that both of my kids have experimented with clothing, have experimented with their hair. If somebody says this is like. The right way to do something. I will research it and maybe I'll feel guilt and shame if I don't do it.

[00:28:19] But do I, but am I gonna do something that in my gut, I don't feel is like logically right for myself or my, uh, kids, like I'm a hundred percent not, I'm gonna do what I think is right, like a, a little rebel. And that's hard for my three husband.

[00:28:36] Sam: I would think so.

[00:28:36] Melissa: So hard. He, the amount of times he's been like, well, so and so, and I'll be like, I do not care about what so and so does that is so and so's life.

[00:28:47] This is our life, right? Like, so it is a weird push and pull energy. Um, that I wonder, I wonder if five fathers notice that same thing or if it's just five mothers, that, that would be interesting to me.

[00:29:05] Sam: Ooh, that might be a good transition into that topic.

[00:29:08] Melissa: Okay. Yeah.

[00:29:09] Sam: say one thing about what you shared, which is in our, our private conversations about, for example, like your son's school journey, like finding the right school for him. Like my experience of you is that you like, do not care what people say is right.

[00:29:23] How far away the school is, like how you have to get him in the right school. It's like, it's about what's right for him. I think I, I really admire that. I think that is a good example of this.

[00:29:34] Melissa: Thank you that that was a struggle and it's still continuing to be a struggle and a place of tension of trying to figure that out. And also to be honest, like what's right for me? What can I handle in terms of how far away a school is? It kind of has to be right for the whole ecosystem of the family, and that gets really overwhelming to be honest, because I have two children.

[00:29:58] You have three children, right? The dynamics between both parents working and then kids and what they need and their different. My brain is endlessly problem solving that,

[00:30:11] Sam: I would think. Yeah,

[00:30:12] Melissa: I would thank you'd be to, could we transition into me asking you a question or two? Sure.

[00:30:18] Sam: sure.

[00:30:20] Melissa: Um, do you wanna go into the, since it's kind of a natural movement, when we're talking about the moms versus the dads, like, what do you think it's, uh, do you think there's a difference being a five mom versus being a five dad and the societal expectations that go along with that?

[00:30:39] Sam: Yes, definitely. Um, and I've actually done an episode with Josiah and Cody in the early seasons on Parenthood, but we still wanted to do this one because I think it's that different. You know, Josiah is a five dad, he has three children.

[00:30:58] Melissa: Um.

[00:30:58] Sam: the first thing that comes to mind and my own dad is a five dad. Um, the first thing that comes to mind is that the five dads I've encountered, and I know quite a few, there's a lot hands offness that can happen is enabled to happen by. You name it. The fact that moms are usually the default parent for multiple reasons. Patriarchy in general, around male and female roles in general, whatever

[00:31:30] Melissa: Whatever.

[00:31:31] Sam: five dads can get a lot more space.

[00:31:34] They can do a lot more like their own projects, their own thing a lot earlier in parenthood and five moms just don't have that option as much In my um, experience. That's the first thing

[00:31:47] Melissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:47] Sam: comes to mind. And then I also don't see five fathers grappling with the things that we're talking about, about a dad's supposed to be like.

[00:31:58] And I'm not like that, you know, what does that say about me? Because society's a lot easier on fathers than on mothers in general.

[00:32:06] Melissa: How does that, uh, or this awareness of that differentiation make you feel as a five mother?

[00:32:17] Sam: Um, I, I don't know if I

[00:32:19] Melissa: I thought,

[00:32:19] Sam: it too much in, except for when we started prepping for this episode. I get it. I get why it's happening. I don't hold anything against, you know, five fathers in the space that they get compared to me. But

[00:32:35] Melissa: I just wish I had,

[00:32:37] Sam: more resources to, to have learned how to do my life as a mom, as a female, five as a mom. Um, I

[00:32:46] Melissa: I wish I had

[00:32:47] Sam: like

[00:32:48] Melissa: conversations.

[00:32:49] Sam: this, resources like this that were saying. It's okay to be like you. You are, of course, you're probably the default parent. Here's what that's gonna feel like. Here's what's probably gonna bring up for you. Here's how

[00:33:02] Melissa: How you can deal with those things.

[00:33:03] Sam: And like you have to carve out space even though your baby cries a lot when you drop her off with the babysitter.

[00:33:10] Because if you don't get the space, your mental health will suffer and your children will suffer. Like all

[00:33:15] Melissa: of that messaging.

[00:33:16] Sam: I think five moms need and five dads usually don't need it because I think they are getting the space.

[00:33:24] Melissa: Mm. Like it's kind of baked into it's kind of baked into the system where I don't feel like five women and moms ha like you said, have the resources to know, to advocate. Even the, the whole default parent thing, I have had to advocate in my marriage for a shared.

[00:33:43] Default. It kind of happened that way naturally. And as like as I was really in it, like all day, every day, I kind of had to be like, this is not sustainable. I am not okay and I'm not gonna be the default parent. We need to be co default parents, which means like figuring out our own personal ebb and flow with, and I think once my husband, he's not like a traditional guy in any way, shape or form.

[00:34:16] So he wasn't like placing these expectations on me. It was kind of just like, again, like baked into both of our like subconsciousness. And then once we started talking about it and like we could see evidence of how much the family was better and I was happier. And then therefore he's a three. So if we're all succeeding, he's succeeding.

[00:34:37] Right? So then he's happier that like. Divvying up some of the default parent responsibilities and or expectations consciously and with intent helped so much. But that was a, a long, messy process that was kind of isolating and lonely because I, like you said, there's just not a lot of out there of female fives, talking about being a female five and also what it means to be a mom in this day and age

[00:35:09] Sam: Until now.

[00:35:10] Melissa: until now.

[00:35:14] Um, can I ask you another question? Sure.

[00:35:17] Sam: Sure.

Public Meltdowns and Parenting Strategies

[00:35:19] Melissa: Tell me about the publicness, the being observed ness of being a five mom and having kids. And I am right there with you. You would think with the, well, maybe it's. Completely expected with a teen and a pre-teen. Uh, there are plenty of public meltdowns, misbehaviors emergencies.

[00:35:42] Tell me what it's like for you when stuff like that happens as a mom. What's going on inside and how do you deal?

[00:35:50] Sam: Oh my God. Like there's nothing worse so I can handle, what I've noticed is that I can handle most, most things that are going on privately like that are going on in my own house, my own yard. Um, as long as I've had enough sleep that night, you know, I'm, I'm relatively not in crisis in terms of my own needs.

[00:36:15] I can basically handle anything that goes on, you know, everyone crying at once, no problem. Every, like, multiple kids throwing up at once, whatever. As soon as the most minor thing happens in public, and I feel like I'm being watched. The internal experience would be like a, like scramble, the

[00:36:35] Melissa: TV script

[00:36:36] Sam: like complete

[00:36:37] Melissa: Just fuzz like I can't

[00:36:40] Sam: It's, it's

[00:36:41] Melissa: function, panic. It's bored

[00:36:43] Sam: It's like this, like emergency feeling, even if it's not an emergency, which it almost never is. Um. It's, it's when I act the worst towards my kids. You know, know,

[00:36:55] Melissa: telling them to stop crying. All the stuff that you're not supposed to do, and then I know

[00:36:59] Sam: supposed to do. I act

[00:37:01] Melissa: act

[00:37:02] Sam: badly when I feel like I'm exposed in public. Um, in fact my most five type, five moment as a mother

[00:37:12] Melissa: well

[00:37:13] Sam: my son was three and he fell at school when we were like at a school event. Everyone was about to leave. He fell on the brick wall and like bashed his mouth and was

[00:37:23] Melissa: everywhere

[00:37:24] Sam: And

[00:37:24] Melissa: some people,

[00:37:25] Sam: who hadn't left yet, like came over to help me

[00:37:27] Melissa: and.

[00:37:27] Sam: told them to leave. Like, I was like, no, we're fine. We're fine, we're fine. Go. No, no,

[00:37:31] Melissa: We're good.

[00:37:32] Sam: But like, meanwhile, he's like gushing blood out of his mouth. And I like had this feeling like I won't be safe until I'm alone. It's so, it goes so deep. No, he wasn't in legitimate danger. If he was in legitimate danger, like hopefully my instincts would've kicked in and accepted help. You know, he was just bleed a lot and he was crying.

[00:37:53] Melissa: But I had this feeling that goes,

[00:37:55] Sam: deep that's like, if other people are here, I'm not safe. Like I can only handle it in private. Does

[00:38:01] Melissa: did I answer your question? Yeah. I have a follow up question. Does that sensation happen, um, in a, like a linear, like you hear those words or is it more of a visceral. Somatic experience that only kind of comes out. 'cause I, I know how I experience it is like, it's like I go offline and I can only say the words that will get the people away from me as fast as possible.

[00:38:30] And then only after everything has happened, after everybody's safe. Do I, am I able to be as articulate as you and say, I don't feel safe, you know, and say all the reasons why. Yes. Exactly the same

[00:38:42] Sam: As you said,

[00:38:43] Melissa: thing. Okay.

[00:38:43] Sam: I

[00:38:44] Melissa: I have no

[00:38:44] Sam: what's going

[00:38:45] Melissa: idea.

[00:38:45] Sam: in the

[00:38:46] Melissa: Okay.

[00:38:47] Sam: it's just panic, panic, panic, panic, like red lights flashing,

[00:38:51] Melissa: Same.

[00:38:52] Sam: totally non-functional. And then after everyone's left, I was like, oh, that was very avoidably attached of me. Um, actually, I think I told that same story when we did the attachment episode, um, on this podcast

[00:39:05] Melissa: Oh yeah.

[00:39:05] Sam: know, it's a avoidant attachment style that's like, I'm, I'm hurt.

[00:39:09] Everyone needs to get away from me. But no, I have no concept, no witness, no maturity after like the nervous system has calm, same as you.

[00:39:19] Melissa: Do you do what I do, which then I try to prepare myself for, like, I, I will notice patterns. I will use my five ness of observation and patterns to try to predict when meltdowns or behavioral problems will happen. And I will run through in my head what I could possibly say, what is my job to do so that I don't have that moment of shutdown and like static happen because I'm just a terrible, I don't even know how to describe it.

[00:40:01] It's like I become a not me version of me and, and I panic. Um, and so yeah. Do you prepare at all.

[00:40:11] Sam: I

[00:40:12] Melissa: I think it's a little

[00:40:13] Sam: harder to do that with really young kids

[00:40:15] Melissa: that's true.

[00:40:17] Sam: um,

[00:40:17] Melissa: in the moment. Yeah. Okay. I'm

[00:40:20] Sam: I'm

[00:40:20] Melissa: starting.

[00:40:21] Sam: um, a little bit and. One of the things I do that is' terrible parenting is, um, my 3-year-old, the, the one I was describing earlier is more introverted, but she has a really loud, high pitched piercing scream.

[00:40:35] When she screams, one of the things I do is just give in immediately to whatever she wants. If I'm in, like, I don't do that all the time, as a matter of course, but if I'm in the kind of situation where I know I'm about to start that panic thing, if she continues screaming and then the thing that she wants is like semi reasonable, I'll just give it to her. No, I know. I've read the books. I know you're not supposed to do that. I know. That's terrible

[00:41:01] Melissa: I'm gonna say the opposite. I think that's exactly what you should do. I think that's protecting everybody's sensit, sensory and auditory and nervous systems. And I once had a social worker, 'cause my son was adopted through, um, foster care and he was a runner when he was like little and I had a baby in like one of the big heavy carriers and then a little runner, toddler, and you're not supposed to bribe children, right.

[00:41:27] That's in the book. And so he was still foster care when they were little. And I was telling the social worker about this problem and I was like, what do I do? I have to like pick a child once running to I drop the one and leave the baby and try to make sure he doesn't go on the road. And she was like, well, what is he like to eat?

[00:41:44] And I was like, fruit snack. She was like, what you do is you have a fruit snack in your pocket at all times. And you'd just be like, Hey, stay near here next to me and give a fruit snack. And like. I was like, how much fruit snacks? She was like, as much fruit snacks as it takes. I was like, but you're not supposed to bribe children.

[00:42:01] And she was like, we prefer calling it positive reinforcement.

[00:42:06] Sam: Oh my God.

[00:42:06] Melissa: what I think you're doing is you're protecting everybody's sensory experience. Thank you.

[00:42:12] Sam: for the, the

[00:42:14] Melissa: You're welcome.

[00:42:15]

Harm Reduction in Parenting

[00:44:26] Sam: Um, like, let's talk about harm reduction for a second. So

[00:44:29] Melissa: Hmm.

[00:44:30] Sam: of course, obviously you don't wanna give into tantruming toddler because it could, it creates entitlement and anxiety. you know, if I'm not doing that all the time, it's like one time out of 10 that it's, you know, this public moment where I'm gonna freak out.

[00:44:45] Um, and it saves me from going into basically a panic attack, like a panic state where I'm a terrible mother to all three of them. I think the like least harmful option is probably what I'm doing.

[00:44:58] Melissa: Yeah, I think that's. The best case scenario for all involved. 

Navigating Public Judgement

[00:45:04] Melissa: And then like as they get older, the scenarios become more complex and then they're more interactive with it, right? They have their own voice and Will, and I would love to say that that gets easier. But it doesn't, it's almost like I've had to confront ego death a lot.

[00:45:24] Sam: Ooh.

[00:45:25] Melissa: Like I like, especially with preteens, like I'm just, I'm gonna look stupid right now. Like these kids are not behaving and there really isn't a way to make them behave that's developmentally appropriate, that they're pushing back in public spaces. 'cause they don't care because all the hormones are flooding their body.

[00:45:44] And I just have to take a deep breath and be like, yep. I look like a bad mom and that's okay. Everybody wants to judge me. Fine. What actually is funny is when those moments happen, it seems like the universe brings other parents into my orbit. Like in public spaces. I've had somebody, my kids were, we were on a hike and both kids were just like being just very vocal about not wanting to be there in a very public trail.

[00:46:12] And this, this couple came towards us up the hill and they were like, how you doing? And I was like, very sarcastically. I was like, I'm not, I was like, so great. We're Stewart. You're doing so great. The teens are loving this. And they were like, actually we have teens as well, so it's all right. We get it. Like, carry on.

[00:46:31] And it was like, so to just be honest about the realness of like, you're doing the best you can. Um, I think instead of being isolating can be more connecting. But it's hard to do as a five. Like it's hard to let that in.

Community and Parenting Styles

[00:46:51] Sam: That makes me think about the, the sort of community aspects of parenthood. 'cause you, um, you brought that in, like, um, leaning on other people for parenting and how being a five woman supports that or hinders that. And you know, that's a whole other aspect of being a five in general and of being a a five woman and of being a five mom. Um, what do

[00:47:18] Melissa: Yeah.

[00:47:18] Sam: you think about that?

[00:47:20] Melissa: What do I think about community?

[00:47:22] Sam: Yeah. What's your, what has your experience been with community as a mom?

[00:47:28] Melissa: I think, I think right now there's a lot of different subsets of. The correct air quotes, the correct way to mother or parent, right? And within those, I find, and maybe this is just me having a brain that sees the bigger picture or like the 30,000 feet kind of a thing that within those subsets, people can be really righteous about this is the correct way to do it.

[00:48:01] And that, uh, I find it neutral. Meaning if you're in that community and that resonates with what your family needs and your children need, then great. Find your people. Find that community and stay in that lane with all the love and generosity in the world, right? Like it's when the, when the communities kind of cross paths.

[00:48:29] And they kind of get antagonistic towards each other or this way is right versus this way is right is when I as like a five female who has a brain that can hold space for lots of thing being true and having nuance and complexity, uh, that short of it, short circuits. So that's made it a little bit harder for me to find my community.

[00:48:53] And what I've found, I think for me is to not ascribe to a certain kind of parenting, but to really find other parents, male and female, that feel safe. That I can be honest with that. My husband can be honest with that. We can talk about challenges with, sometimes that's with having kids the same age and sometimes like you and I who don't have kids the same age, but we are, we're wired the same way.

[00:49:22] So we could just be like real with each other and there's so much love and support and just being like, oh my God, this happened today. You know, like, so for me, that's my community and, but I, it's no judgment towards any of the parenting styles. I think it's what, whatever really works. And also that changes constantly 'cause kids go through so many phases.

[00:49:43] So, yeah, for me it's safe people.

[00:49:48] Sam: Yeah,

[00:49:48] Melissa: What about you? You feel the same?

[00:49:51] Sam: It's, I think I've developed kind of a radar for who are gonna be understanding and compassionate towards mistakes and towards, you know, my oldest is really spunky, high energy, um, you know, acting out type of kid.

[00:50:08] Melissa: Me too. I have two of those.

[00:50:11] Sam: Right.

[00:50:11] Melissa: Yeah.

[00:50:12] Sam: I, I've

[00:50:13] Melissa: I.

[00:50:13] Sam: learned that, like to recognize on site parents who are gonna take that personally, blame me for it and be unpleasant to be around and I avoid them. Um, the community, like community in general. When I fir had my first baby, um, it was my husband actually really, really strongly encouraged me to connect with with kids the same age, or just connect with people in general.

[00:50:40] Because, you know, ISOL Isolation is a big contributor to postpartum depression and things like that. So I went out on a limb more than would be typical for me as a five and as a five woman and went to a couple of classes and things like that. And I'm still in touch with, you know, one or two people from those things that really make the journey easier. But mostly it's about, like you said, finding someone with the same. Not

[00:51:07] Melissa: Strategy.

[00:51:08] Sam: parenting, but the same vibe and attitude, like the

[00:51:11] Melissa: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think it's counterintuitive for a five person to be like community and people are necessary for wellbeing, but they are like truly, truly, truly. And I think we both, I think you and I both know that and feel that even with each other, like I'm just the happiest person to know you and be able to text you and ask you all the things.

[00:51:43] Sam: Likewise. Um, okay, I have a question. 

Balancing Family Dynamics

[00:51:49] Sam: So I think we are, we sort of touched on this, but is it like for you interacting with a partner and children who such different energies, types, stances, ways of existing than you?

[00:52:07] Melissa: I will say how it was in the past, how it is now, and how I'd like it to be in the future. In the past, we didn't always know the Enneagram, so I didn't always understand what was happening. Right. And my two have been, I, I think my son is an eight wing seven. He is the one that I'm most sure on. We don't talk about it with them.

[00:52:35] Um, even though he's 13, probably handle some of it. For me personally, just gonna wait a bit and if he's interested in it, great. But if not, that's fine. And my daughter is either a seven wing eight or a maybe a four, maybe like a sexual four. I'm leaning towards seven. I ask questions here and there. And then my husband is a three.

[00:53:00] So when they were little, they were still that. That was the vibe. It was just, they were always great sleepers. Always great eaters. But as soon as they were awake, it was like full on energy all the time. And then my husband is full on energy all the time, so he would come swoop in after me being the default parent before we kind of worked on all this stuff, right?

[00:53:28] Swoop in, me being the default parent, I was done, I was toast as soon as he got home. And then he would go do all the fun stuff, right? Like he would be the fun dad and the three, and he, and then I would sure get time alone, but totally resent that I was so different and being left out of all the fun, but I was also completely exhausted and had no words left for anybody.

[00:53:52] And then, so then I try to force it sometimes and then that didn't work. And then I'd have a cycle of just like losing my shit at everyone and being like, this is unsustainable. You all are awful. Like when they're, you know, they're little like nobody, like I would just like have a total breakdown and then my husband would be like, you're right.

[00:54:16] And he would, you know, figure it out. How it is now is now we have lots more language. My husband knows he's assertive. He knows my kids are assertive. I know they're assertive at the moment. And for the foreseeable future, we'll, we'll see. That gives me more permission to talk myself out of trying to force things, allowing them to go do things on their own, be.

[00:54:45] Future oriented, action oriented people with plans and structures and schedules while time still thinking about what happened two weeks ago, like, and trying to solve a problem from then and having lots of feelings about it. Like, and they're all like feeling repressed and I'm not, which is hilarious as the five, I'm the most feeling one out of everybody and it's wildly unfair.

[00:55:14] So that's still a thing that we're working on is like, guys come on with the feelings. Like, like, give me a break. I'm the five here. Like, that's not fair. So, but yeah, I have to remind them feelings. Um, they're much more, everybody's much more respectful of when I am out of energy. They know what it means to be out of energy.

[00:55:37] They know what it means when I say I'm out of words or I'm done. It's. A little less respected 'cause they're in that preteen stage. So they're just generally testing boundaries. Um, and teenagers. But my husband really respects it. Um, and when he doesn't mean to push past boundaries, but does 'cause he can't help it sometimes.

[00:55:58] 'cause he's a three and just doesn't even realize he's pushing past the boundary. I'm very firm, but it's not in the same, uh, well, no, sometimes it's angry 'cause I don't like having to speak up as much. I would say half and half, if we're gonna be honest. Like half the time, like get into like, ugh, like angry, pissed off.

[00:56:20] And then half the time I'm like, Nope. Remember? And he is like, oh yeah. So we're at 50 50 in the future. I would love, I would love all of them to realize the benefit of being more chill and calm. I would, I would love one of them to take up reading and just sit next to me and read a book. It is probably a fantasy, but Well, you know, we have to have hope.

[00:56:49] Sam: I have high hopes for my middle child for that, but not the other ones.

[00:56:53] Melissa: I love that for you. I'm glad you have one.

[00:56:58] Sam: So yeah, it's looking like I have one introvert, um, but she like came up with a really, really, really talkative brother, so she's quite talkative and like rambunctious herself. occasionally, like we would have people over, um, 'cause my husband's an extroverted sexual eight, so he would insist that we have people over. So, um, once in a while we'd have people over and, um, I would end up hiding in the bathroom with my now 3-year-old.

[00:57:27] Melissa: That is an excellent strategy.

[00:57:29] Sam: Have introvert time. So, um, but in general, I'm in the same boat. My, um, my oldest is very extroverted. My husband's extremely extroverted and I think my baby is extroverted.

[00:57:39] You can actually

[00:57:40] Melissa: Kind of

[00:57:41] Sam: babies 'cause they, um, will wanna face outwards more smile, more like interact with strangers. They want, they don't want you to hold them all the time. Versus an introverted baby is gonna want like, make less eye contact with strangers and be like more facing inward and more wanna be held more in

[00:57:56] Melissa: in general,

[00:57:58] Sam: So, um,

[00:57:59] Melissa: three extrovert,

[00:58:00] Sam: and an introvert, possibly an introvert at least right now. And it's, it is a struggle like. I'm starting to find my way a little bit now with like, I'll say, I'm gonna listen to music right now in the car to calm down. then when I put the music on, or not usually talking, 'cause whenever they talk I turn it off and they like, they're like,

[00:58:23] Melissa: stop. Why are you.

[00:58:24] Sam: the song? And like, we don't talk and listen to music at the same time. Some people do that, but we don't do that. Um, we don't talk at the same time as each other. Some people do that, but we don't do that because I can't handle it. And I mean, I don't tell them I can't handle it. I tell them, you know, like in our family we speak one at a time and they're starting to be capable of learning that. it's a lot of like 24 7 or system overwhelm for me, honestly. Um, especially when we travel. We love to travel and

[00:58:53] Melissa: I love to travel home.

[00:58:54] Sam: but it's like when you're traveling, everything's

[00:58:57] Melissa: new,

[00:58:57] Sam: you get no breaks. They're not in school. You know, by the end of some of our trips, I'm like. A pile of uselessness.

[00:59:05] Like I just, I'm so burned out and so overwhelmed and I can't think straight, you know, with noise. So it's, pretty challenging waters, I would say.

[00:59:17] Melissa: I think. 

Traveling with Different Energy Levels

[00:59:17] Melissa: I love that you brought that up because I feel like that highlights the difference between me as a self pre five and you as a sexual five. The. Willingness to travel and embrace that chaos, knowing that you're gonna be a pile at the end of sensory overwhelm and energetic depletion versus my self pre instinct that kicks in, that thinks through.

[00:59:49] I need a separate hotel room, and what is the downtime gonna be like because, and when am I gonna have alone time? Because being the pile at the end is not only not great for me, but it, my husband is a three. He needs it to be successful. So he like needs me to be self pre, so about my self presentness so that he can feel like the trip was a success.

[01:00:15] Right. So we're both fives, but we're very different in that way. Yeah.

[01:00:20] Sam: that's a good thing to bring up. I actually wish I was more like you, you know, I'm self-preservation repressed, so I don't think about those things when I really wanna be thinking about those things. I'm working on the software instinct a lot in these years, um, you know, as of pretty recently. And that's one of the things I'd like to add because, know, I, I was

[01:00:43] Melissa: Like cruel

[01:00:44] Sam: to

[01:00:45] Melissa: my

[01:00:45] Sam: my

[01:00:45] Melissa: children by

[01:00:46] Sam: of our last trip, which was a very long trip and a very like, ambitious trip.

[01:00:51] Melissa: the end.

[01:00:52] Sam: I don't think that that's okay.

[01:00:54] Melissa: And if I

[01:00:55] Sam: uh,

[01:00:56] Melissa: imbue it with some

[01:00:57] Sam: this.

[01:00:57] Melissa: of

[01:00:58] Sam: Practicality around, where's the, where's the downtime, where's the alone time? That would be way better. Um, one of

[01:01:05] Melissa: my biggest

[01:01:06] Sam: struggles as a mom is that I'm married to an eight, like eights are the highest energy type on the Enneagram, and fives are often described as the lowest energy type, along with nines second lowest a you know, after nines.

[01:01:20] Melissa: So he has like what seemingly.

[01:01:23] Sam: infinite energy, whereas I need. Hours and hours of space and self care to, to be functional. And he, he does

[01:01:32] Melissa: Not

[01:01:33] Sam: understand. He tries to understand, but he doesn't personally in his own body understand that. So, um, he's great about helping me

[01:01:41] Melissa: get that space.

[01:01:41] Sam: I say, Hey,

[01:01:42] Melissa: I need space.

[01:01:43] Sam: know, with a lot of energy behind it, we've talked about this, but if I don't have the energy to even say that with energy behind it doesn't happen.

[01:01:51] And then we have like this whole downward spiral. So, um, I'd like to get more self prezi, or I'm thinking about those things and communicating them and then having them so that the whole thing goes better.

[01:02:02] Melissa: and same with me. Sexual is my middle, but I, so I like incorporating it more. I, and I could do with less of the self pre and more of the social. The social is my repressed. I've been working a lot on that as well. I. And I'm actually pretty proud of myself that I've been saying. I think moving across the country, sexual and social had to come up.

[01:02:26] And even just talking to you and you going on that trip is like, darn it, it's like you only have one life, you might as well do stuff, right? So there's like self-preservation is great and that's great. So like maybe bake some more self-preservation into the trip. But like those of us over here, we need to say yes to the trips, right?

[01:02:46] Because you wanna do the fun thing and have the experience. And so I think, you know, like all the instincts, we need all three and just in balance if possible, which is a high thing to try to achieve and doesn't usually happen. So just grace for when it doesn't,

[01:03:06] Sam: I am going to use, you only have one life. You might as well do stuff as I can encourage and quote for myself. Press clients.

[01:03:13] Melissa: that would be like a great title for like a five book like. You might as well do things.

[01:03:19] Sam: Um, well, I thought a nice question to end on might be this one. 

Cherishing Moments with Kids

[01:03:25] Sam: Um, Melissa, what do you love most about being a mom?

[01:03:31] Melissa: Oh, you surprised me. Um, what do I love most about being a mom? I love, there's just like actually so many things that come to mind and I'm not like lying about it. Um, it's just like hard to pick because it's specific to each kid. So, can I do that? Can I say what? Okay. What I love most about being the mom, a mom, to my son, who I think is an eight, is that we have a special connection in terms of like, not only sharing, I think an Enneagram line.

[01:04:12] We both. Say it how it is. And that's so fun to have this person, this little person who's becoming a person, remind me that it's okay to say it how it is and invite me into that space. And I learn from him and he learns from me. I think we learn, he learns emotionality from me, and I learn, oh my gosh. It's like great to walk around in the world as an eight.

[01:04:43] You know, like it's great to say what you think and feel and just have like not give a fuck, like it's so wonderful. And so I'm just so, like, that's such a special thing for me as a mom to him. And obviously he's adopted, so I'm his second mom. I'm not his birth mom. And that's a privilege. And it's hard and it's also magical and it's all baked into one.

[01:05:10] For, for that. So that's for him. My daughter, I feel like. So if she's a seven, I also share a line with her. And when she was little, uh, she would just like run around like half naked in a tutu. And I felt like I was watching like my soul run around. It was like, oh, if I could just be absolutely free and not be a five, that's how I would be too.

[01:05:32] Right. Like, and so she embodies like this joyful, I mean, not at the moment, she's a preteen, bless her. But like for the most part, she's joyful. Wants everybody to be happy, wants to find the most fun thing to do. And I love having fun with her. I love just doing random fun shit that she comes up with all the time.

[01:05:59] And I say, no, way more than she would like, but. I say yes, way more than I ever would have if I had never had her in my life. So I'm, it's just a privilege to be both of their moms and that sounds so lovely and I really, let's not sugarcoat it. There are a teen and a preteen and there's so many hormones and it's so raw and a lot of the time,

[01:06:21] Sam: moving though.

[01:06:23] Melissa: but I need it to be also real, so like Yeah,

[01:06:26] Sam: That was really moving. You know, I say yes way more than I ever would. She wasn't in my life

[01:06:31] Melissa: it's true. Thank you. What about you? What do you love about being a mom?

[01:06:36] Sam: this is one of those rare moments where I asked something and I don't have an answer. Like, when I asked it, I didn't already have an

[01:06:42] Melissa: Ha ha.

[01:06:43] Sam: Um,

[01:06:44] Melissa: You.

[01:06:45] Sam: the way you did yours. I might do the same thing.

[01:06:47] But what I love in general is I actually just love the cuddles. Like I'm very physical person, um, which is unusual for her fives. But, I love the cuddles. I love when they crawl in my lap and, you know, sometimes it's too much and the boniness and I'm getting elbowed

[01:07:03] Melissa: The eye.

[01:07:03] Sam: and like,

[01:07:03] Melissa: I don't like that, but

[01:07:05] Sam: I,

[01:07:06] Melissa: I actually really,

[01:07:06] Sam: love the cuddles and I have really loved sleeping with them because it's like. We're asleep.

[01:07:12] Melissa: it's like, so

[01:07:12] Sam: lovely and sweet and they're quiet and it's like,

[01:07:16] Melissa: you know, you have

[01:07:16] Sam: certain kind of energetic connection when you share a bed with someone and it's like always been really lovely to cuddle and sleep with them, all three of them. Um, but I wanna do your idea of going one at a time because they are so

[01:07:29] Melissa: different,

[01:07:29] Sam: know? Um, with

[01:07:31] Melissa: my oldest who

[01:07:33] Sam: a boy, um, share

[01:07:35] Melissa: like

[01:07:35] Sam: a.

[01:07:36] Melissa: a

[01:07:36] Sam: A

[01:07:36] Melissa: sharp

[01:07:37] Sam: mind, like a a, intense curiosity about

[01:07:40] Melissa: things

[01:07:42] Sam: And I love how he wants to know everything, you know, he's just like, oh my God, mom.

[01:07:47] Melissa: like what about octopus?

[01:07:49] Sam: Like, what

[01:07:50] Melissa: about

[01:07:51] Sam: you know,

[01:07:52] Melissa: killer whales? What about

[01:07:54] Sam: engineering?

[01:07:54] Melissa: What about gen?

[01:07:55] Sam: construction? You know, he wants to know everything about everything. And I do too. And I love that, you know, I love exploring things and he's always telling me facts from various books and things that he hasn't, that I didn't know myself.

[01:08:08] And did

[01:08:09] Melissa: you

[01:08:10] Sam: that cobras

[01:08:11] Melissa: know, have this kind of like,

[01:08:12] Sam: I'm like,

[01:08:13] Melissa: no, I didn't

[01:08:13] Sam: Like now I do. That's awesome. You know, I

[01:08:15] Melissa: love.

[01:08:17] Sam: And I love, like I said, I'm teaching him to read and I, I'm really enjoying that. I love helping him learn. Um, my 3-year-old who's a girl, and I think an introvert, I love that, you know, that whole people speak over us like we're not. Necessarily heard as loud, as clearly as other people like. I really feel that with her. I feel like I really understand her and I love, she's very earthy, like very physical. I love doing physical things like baking. Um, you know, where she has a really good dexterity and stuff for her age. Like she can make chocolate covered strawberries herself, you know, and it's so fun to do like physical things with her and see her do them. and then my baby, who's one is just like the funniest, happiest, iest, most ticklish,

[01:09:10] Melissa: Aw.

[01:09:11] Sam: cute thing. And I love hearing her laugh and like smile and just smiling and like making her laugh. She's just like such a, a blast. She's so fun.

[01:09:21] Melissa: I love that.

[01:09:22] Sam: Oh, this is

[01:09:23] Melissa: me, it makes me miss all the little, like when you said cuddling, I was like, I was gonna say that first, but I don't, they do it a little bit with me. But yeah, that's such a sweet part of motherhood is the cuddling and the physicality of it. It's really, really nice.

[01:09:36] Sam: I am hoping with three, that at least one of them will be in a, in a, like a hugging phase at all times, even when they're older. 'cause I wouldn't wanna have like no cuddles.

[01:09:45] Melissa: Mine still get in bed with me in the morning as much like, because they get ready for school earlier than I get up like my husband does mornings and if they're in full clothes and they just get in bed and like to snuggle, and I, that's like my favorite part of the day if that happens. So, yeah.

[01:10:02] Sam: that's so lovely.

[01:10:03] Melissa: And you're, I loved your answers about all your kiddos and Yeah.

[01:10:08] See, we're awesome moms. What are you talking about? Deficiency, sch mission.

[01:10:14] Sam: See, we need, this is why we need this conversation.

[01:10:16] Melissa: Yeah.

Concluding Thoughts and Reflections

[01:10:17] Sam: it helps people who are listening who are, are moms or are thinking about becoming moms or just these things are relevant to all relationships. I feel like

[01:10:26] Melissa: True.

[01:10:27] Sam: family dynamics.

[01:10:29] Melissa: Yeah.

[01:10:30] Sam: you

[01:10:30] Melissa: Thank you. This was fun and lovely. Yeah.

[01:10:33] Sam: so fun.

[01:10:34] Hopefully we'll have, we can do more in the future about other topics, but I'm so happy to talk to you and I like talking to you anyway, so doing it and recording it is super easy and super fun.

[01:10:45] Melissa: I feel the same. This was great.

[01:10:47] Sam: Thanks

[01:10:48] Melissa: right. Bye

[01:10:49] Sam: Bye