Friendship: Why is it Hard to Make Friends as an Enneagram 5?

Introduction and Friendship Beginnings
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[00:00:00] Josiah: ​so, Cody. Yes? Why are you friends with me? 

[00:00:04] Cody: God, so many times in my life I've asked that question. In different contexts. And uh, I mean the answer at this point is I feel like we've just known each other so long we're more like family. So I can't get rid of you if I wanted to. That's right. Yeah.


[00:00:54] Josiah: Alright, so, friendship. Yeah, that one is a weird one for me. 

[00:01:00] Cody: Yeah, definitely me too. 

[00:01:03] Josiah: For sure. 


Defining Friendship
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[00:01:04] Josiah: What does friendship mean to you, Cody? We're 

[00:01:07] Cody: just going right into the deep end. Right in the beginning, okay. What is friendship? To me it 

[00:01:14] Josiah: means putting my friends on the spot. Making them feel awkward. 

[00:01:18] Cody: Yeah. And anxious.

[00:01:19] Having people you can throw into a mess and see what happens. People to entertain me. Yeah. I mean, obviously, if you ask me at different times in my life, I would say different, vastly different things, I think. 


Commitment and Growth in Friendships
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[00:01:32] Cody: But I think that friendship is something that I would define as two people who are choosing to go through life together, regardless of the direction.

[00:01:45] And I say that, I say that because I, I was just talking about this the other day cause I was saying like, I don't think that two people have to be going in the same direction to stay friends longterm. You just have to have the commitment both ways that you're doing it together anyway. You kind of defy those odds of whatever, whatever's happening in each other's lives because life always takes you in different directions and so, it's, it's not allowing your friendship to devolve into.

[00:02:11] Proximity being the main reason you're together. You know what I mean? I think that's something that I've felt a lot in my adult years, but especially as I, you know, I'm about to exit my thirties. I'm like at a place at this point where I just don't have, and I'm talking like close friends circle, not like acquaintance level or anything.

[00:02:32] We can, we can talk about how we distinguish. Yeah, we'll get there. But if we're just talking about friendship and the first thing that comes to mind is like good friends. And I think of, of, I was just saying this other day, I just don't have the, I don't have the internal resources or energy or not. I do have it, but I don't want to.

[00:02:51] I don't want to use those resources towards people who are takers and not, we, we don't have the same understanding of this relationship, right? Like there's people in my life who I do a lot for, or I would consider as friends until it's the other direction. And then, Oh, actually, I guess we're not friends.

[00:03:08] Cause I wasn't even remotely prioritized in your life and these decisions or whatever, you know? And so I think of the best friendships are the ones where. Two parties are at least on the somewhat on the same page about what that actually is. Yeah Yeah, you know, I I think Direction probably was the right word But you know because we're I feel like we're heading in the same similar direction, but we're on different paths Okay, sometimes those paths cross and sometimes they don't sure.

[00:03:36] Josiah: Yeah, but for me It's hard for me, especially in this phase of my life It's hard for me to be friends with someone who just stays the same, doesn't grow at all, right? Because that's my trajectory and, and so I think for us, like we're each kind of growing in our own ways and we, you know, we, we grow together, we grow apart a little bit, we push each other, but we're, we're, we're both like growing up towards the sun, right?

[00:04:09] Cody: Yeah, well, and I think too that that, and yeah, and that's, I guess that's kind of what I was thinking I was imagining in my head, like people who have their own paths and they kind of cross, I guess you do kind of go in the same direction because if you're going to, if we're going to follow that metaphor through and keep using it probably past, uh, what we need to, I think that it, it does, it does kind of paint a picture of how people.


Outgrowing Friendships
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[00:04:31] Cody: How easily it is to outgrow other people and how it's okay to outgrow people. You know, I think that I think that it's, it's such an important thing to allow ourselves to be okay without growing people and not feel bad about it, you know, cause I mean, we do that with relationships, like intimate relationships all the time throughout our life.

[00:04:48] So why would we not do that with also friendships? And, and in that same vein, I kind of think of the more that I'm kind of, kind of pulling it apart in my head as we talk about it. I think that it's. It's kind of the same standard you would think of as like a healthy relationship of somebody that you would want to that you see yourself with long term that you're going to marry them or whatever right it's like a romantic relationship like a romantic relationship is that You want the, you want the people in your life to push you to be better, to push you in maybe towards the direction of like what you, what your goals are, what you're trying to do and have people support you along that, on, along that way or along that, uh, journey.

[00:05:23] And and none of those things can happen if they're not, if what I said earlier isn't true, I think, you know, showing up from both sides. And in. When it's needed, I guess. I wanted to say equal parts, but that's not necessarily true. I don't believe that friendship should necessarily be equal all the time.

[00:05:41] Just like, I don't think marriages are equal all the time. And so, yeah. I guess that's kind of where I'm at right now. Yeah, there was a quote. Let me see if I can find it. 

[00:05:48] Josiah: This is a weird way to phrase this. It's by Carl Jung Uhhuh. Yung. Yung Yung Carl Jung, Carl Jung . Loneliness does not come from having no people about one. Uh, shit. What I'm gonna change the quote to make it make more sense. 

[00:06:08] Cody: Are we sure That's the real quote. 

[00:06:09] Josiah: It doesn't have no, it was a, it was a meme, so maybe it's not even a real quote, but I liked it so I saved it.

[00:06:14] It's his 

[00:06:14] Cody: quote attributed to Carl Young on Facebook. count you, 

[00:06:18] Josiah: Carl Yung. Loneliness does not come from having no one around you, but from being unable to communicate the things that seem important to oneself. Oof. Yeah. 


Friendship and Vulnerability
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[00:06:30] Josiah: So when I think about friendship, it's, you know, we look at those sort of concentric concentric circles where you've got the most intimate relationships in the middle and kind of moving outwards.

[00:06:43] That is what comes to mind with friends. Like really moving into that inner circle is being able to. say what's on your mind even if it's not polished. Yeah. Even if it's like rough and it's, there's no judgment, but there can be pushback, which is great. But knowing that you are free to actually like say what's on your mind and not self censor.

[00:07:07] Yeah. To, to, and it's cause it's not binary, right? So there's a, there's a gradient there and to the degree that you can do that more, I feel like this, the deeper the friendship goes. Yeah. And that's one of those things where I think when you're, you're growing apart, one person's going further than the other.

[00:07:24] It usually shows up in those conversations where it's like, if I'm growing and, or I'm, you know, discovering this new thing and I'm wanting to share that, And the other person is not receptive to it. That's where I start feeling that separation. Probably more than any 

[00:07:40] Cody: other place. Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like we talked about that a little bit last season too.

[00:07:44] We kind of touched on it in an, uh, like an adjacent conversation but yeah, cause we've been through phases and seasons of that a little bit between us for various reasons since, since, since COVID, since we started this pod, this podcast. And, but I don't think it was until, and it's funny that you say that because it wasn't until after season four that like seasons one through three, made me feel like I was a lot better at communicating what I was thinking or feeling like I could talk to you about specific things that we can have this conversation.

[00:08:13] But it wasn't until after season four that I felt like the, the, the podcast and that kid, but more, more, more importantly, that consistent like talking about heavier things, especially season four was a lot heavier and a lot more intimate. I don't think I could have done that in seasons one through three.

[00:08:26] So sometime between seasons three and four, I felt A little bit more like vulnerable and closer to you, but it was after season four going into this season like between this whole year I felt the closest to you that I felt since we were like 19 Yeah, you know, yeah, and but obviously so much better because I would not want to go back to my 19 year old self or anything But yeah, I think it's I 

[00:08:48] Josiah: think it's because before we went into that season at some point a month or two before maybe We had to have a conversation first You Which was just like, acknowledging kind of what had gone on between us.

[00:09:01] Yeah. And, cause there, we, we basically, there were a few topics where, We just like that was the no go zone, you know Neither of us brought it up Sure, like, you know, we didn't want to trigger anything because we can kind of keep this playground over here We're happy and right now joking and stuff, but just like don't look over the fence.

[00:09:22] Yeah, that's where the Terminator is 

[00:09:24] Cody: And you know, like they always say, like things don't go away on their own and that is true to some degree. But the time where we didn't talk about it was actually, I think, very needed, at least for my part, because I was able to process my own stuff, but getting sidetracked.

[00:09:38] But yeah, all that to say, I think that there is setting the not the expectation, but like kind of setting a new standard of where we were getting on the same page and kind of being like, okay, we're here now. Let's go from here and move forward. Was, yeah, definitely very helpful.

[00:09:51] Josiah: I'm curious for you, Cody, what is your criteria for moving from some of these outer circles to the inner circles? 

[00:09:58] Cody: I think that, uh, everybody is in the The neutral bucket, you know, like, the you're an acquaintance. I, I, I, I'm probably know your name. Definitely know your face. We've had a conversation or two, whatever that is.

[00:10:14] We haven't really hung out, you know, that's like the outer, outer circle. And I'm going to just be straight up. The only way to get out of that outer circle is to first, you can't annoy me. I think, I think it's, it's easy to say that people can, I, I would say that at this point in my life, I give people the biggest chance to succeed when it comes to trying to be friends, because I used to shut people out pretty early on, whether they liked it or not.

[00:10:41] And I basically was just like, Classic five, build my dark scary castle and a deep moat with a lot of alligators. And if you can get across the alligators, then sure, maybe we'll have a conversation, but you got to do that first. And so it was an uphill battle from the beginning. And it was, it was just harder for people to be friends with me.

[00:10:58] And I always got these comments especially back in my church days where people would say like, I just didn't know what to think about you when I first met you because I couldn't read you. And I didn't know. You know, I even had one person tell me, they were like, my father was a uh, what's it called?

[00:11:13] A con man. And you gave me the vibes of kind of like him because I couldn't read you and he, you couldn't read him and he was a sociopath and so it made me feel uneasy about you until I got to know you. And so, and I used to hear variations of that kind of thing all the time and it never really bothered me until probably in the last, I mean, until my thirties, I got through all of my twenties being completely fine with that fact.

[00:11:39] And then there's a certain point where. I think every person, whether it's, you know, maybe it's your personality, maybe it's your, your, the context of your life, your, your, the history of your experiences that has led you to a place where like you, you tend to do these kinds of things, but like I was just so uneasy about people so much throughout my life and for no reason.

[00:12:02] And I didn't really have a reason for it. And it is such a, it was such a silly thing, but there's always this point in your life where you want to be known. And maybe, like I said, history of experiences, things that led you up to this point, I think determines that at different points in your life. Some people hit it earlier, some people don't, uh, to do it to later.

[00:12:19] And I guess I was a late bloomer in this regard because I feel like it was mid thirties where I was like, you know, what would be really great is if I had friends who actually know me and actually know my stupid quirks and love me anyway. And I think that it wasn't, I mean, honestly, it probably wasn't until I met Madison, being loved in a way that helps me understand that my dumbest self, my silliest self, my most ridiculous version of me is still not only something worth people knowing, but honestly probably is the most endearing fact, you know, uh, parts of me that I never let anybody see until.

[00:12:57] later on in my life. You know, the thing I was always afraid of saying the goofy, dumb stuff, or like the way that people would view me. And it got into it helped being getting to a place where I stopped caring so much about what I thought of myself well, or what other people thought of me and just worrying about how I felt about myself helped me to be in a place where I could maybe pursue actual friendship with people.

[00:13:20] Because it wasn't until that point. It's just you. You can't find someone can't love you until you love yourself. It's kind of like that with friendships do in some ways. I feel like because the more I know myself, the more I understand and know kind of how love works is, is a better way to, it's a lot easier to create space in your, in your life for people to love you when you know kind of what that is.

[00:13:42] And like what that might look like. And so, and I didn't know that before. So I didn't really know what friendship was probably until like the last five years. I think it's like, that's been the biggest like jump in my life in, in my, it was in my thirties is like, people always say so many things change and they do.

[00:13:58] But like, the biggest thing is, is like, it's a whole lot easier to see who your friends are. Like, it's just so much easier. And the way that I would define that is kind of like what I was talking about earlier, but also like, who, if I was If something really bad or really good happened, who am I calling?

[00:14:13] Who am I going to tell about it? Because that's if I, if they, if they're there in the best and the worst times and they're there in the in between times too, they're kind of, that's, that's the person you can depend on. And dependability is pretty big for me, especially loyalty. That wing, that six wing kind of kicks in there.

[00:14:28] And so, you know, 

[00:14:29] Josiah: Yeah, I. think I'm still trying to figure out what friendship means. Aren't we all 

[00:14:36] Cody: always though? I mean, 

[00:14:38] Josiah: I didn't mean it in some sort of meta way, I meant it in a very specific way. I 

[00:14:41] Cody: know, 

[00:14:41] Josiah: but The friend inside of you was the one that you were looking for all along. 


Childhood and Social Awkwardness
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[00:14:49] Josiah: No, so I, You know, we've talked about before on the show, I think it was the isolation episode and just how I was like, really lonely as a kid growing up.

[00:14:58] Yeah. I didn't have a lot of friends and it took me a while to just not be super socially awkward, like, like a long, long time. 

[00:15:07] Cody: Yeah. 

[00:15:08] Josiah: And, and so, you know, I spent, I, I think I developed some, Survival mechanisms in that, that I'm still discovering and unpacking and trying to figure out how to flip that and integrate it back into my system.

[00:15:25] I, I realized recently, working with a professional development coach since the beginning of the summer, and which I'm, I'm really grateful for, especially since, especially with all the stuff I've been going through this summer, with my job and other things. I realized that I, when I, when I hit these periods in my life where it's super stressful.

[00:15:49] A lot of anxiety just a lack of energy from all of that. The two things that I prioritize, I deprioritize are my relationships and then my health. And health is at the bottom of the list. Relationships is just barely above that. And I have done a lot of work to prioritize the most intimate relationships.

[00:16:23] But friendships have never really made the list and I was realizing that this summer and I was trying to unpack that about why I still have that as a as a habit and I was just thinking back to those years in like middle school, especially where I went from being homeschooled to going to public school and I And I moved a lot too.

[00:16:57] So I was always, you know, just when I thought that I was going to kind of integrate into this group of people, I would have to start all over again. 


Survival Mechanisms and Social Anxiety
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[00:17:06] Josiah: And so I developed this kind of ability to observe and read the room and like follow all of the mannerisms and all of the things that they're saying and try to essentially, uh, play human.

[00:17:23] and like analytically, I look at that, I can intellectualize that and understand, you know, why I did it and, you know, what the advantages and disadvantages are to that and, and I kind of done a lot of that work thinking through it, but then I found myself still doing that and I would be in different groups of people and I would kind of just like only reveal certain parts of my personality or try to like.

[00:17:55] Like play human basically. It's always curated. Right. And it's exhausting. And so what happens is I get into these modes of, of energy conservation essentially, and that's one of the first things to get cut because it's, you know, it's exhausting and, but because of that though, I The story that I've always had is like I've struggled making friends.

[00:18:21] I can, I can kind of make, I can make acquaintances. Yeah. But I can't ever find those people that I can bring into the, you know, more into the middle circles. And I, you know, I, I, every time I would think that I am doing that. If I were to find someone then something would happen and they would go south right?

[00:18:43] Can I, can we, take a little, take a little 

[00:18:45] Cody: detour. Okay, yeah yeah. While you're on this. Um, In your mind, when you think about. The most ideal group of close friends. What do you imagine? Hmm. Like, you can use cultural references, TV shows, movies, whatever you grew up with. There's something in your mind from your childhood that you've thought about your whole life.

[00:19:05] Probably. Like, different versions of it. So what is it? 

[00:19:09] Josiah: Wait, oh, I thought you were going somewhere with this. I am. I want to know. Oh, no, you're genuinely curious. I thought you were making a joke. No, I'm not. I thought you were about to plug the community, the five community. Oh, that would have been a great 

[00:19:22] Cody: ad.

[00:19:23] I know, 

[00:19:23] Josiah: right? 

[00:19:24] Cody: By the way, uh, go to Enneagram5. com slash for our community. Slash community. Slash community and go to our community and uh, I'm going to put some music here.

[00:19:37] Josiah: okay, um, there is an answer to this question. I need to get my brain back on it to figure out what it was. Cause there's a, there's a specific TV show and every time I watch it, I have that feeling of I wish my life were like this. Ooh, okay. But I can't remember which one it is right now in this moment.

[00:19:58] Okay. It has to do with a group of friends, I know that much. Yeah. You'll be good. 

[00:20:02] Cody: Through all the shows I know you love. No, I The OC.

[00:20:09] How I Met Your Mother. Um. Well, while you're thinking about it. Go ahead. I, I, so I don't have a specific, mine is less about a specific scene or like a movie or a TV show and more about a very specific feeling that different scenes give me that are all consistently the same, which is any type of movie, a lot of times it's like action movies or TV shows where they do have a big group of people, but it's like that level where they're so familiar with each other that they can say whatever, do whatever, and have this like camaraderie and back and forth, like witty banter thing and like nobody's feelings ever get hurt.

[00:20:45] And like, you know what I mean? Like an Aaron Sorkin show. It pretty much anytime. But having that kind of like relationship that's like, Oh, you could have a working relationship or a personal relationship. It doesn't really matter. Everybody just gets together. You know, it's like, Uh, I mean, it's almost like, Kind of, this is, I've never watched the show, But I've seen pieces of it in close proximity but a little like Sex and the City vibes.

[00:21:10] Because you know, like, you know, like, they, like, Just groups of people that go through so much. You're such a Sabrina. Is there a Sabrina? I think so, I don't know. It's like Samantha, I think. Oh, Samantha, there we go. I was thinking I don't want to be Samantha. Teenage Witch. Oh, yes. Um, Yeah, and what if we go back all the way, you know, shows like The Wander Years, Boy Meets World.

[00:21:32] Shows like that definitely like help to define I think of like, you remember the show salute your shorts? Yes. Like shows like that, where they always have like that, like fun, energetic, but then you get older and you see similar versions of that being written into stories.

[00:21:45] And what it actually ends up being is people who like, think of each other as family almost. It's like that such a familiar, level that like, yeah, nothing you're going to do or say is actually going to surprise me. And that was always something that I romanticized in my brain because I've never seen it in my life.

[00:22:01] Yeah. But now that I'm older, I've seen it in other people's lives a lot, just never with me. And so I started See, maybe I'm the problem. But anyway, that's kind of where I'm at with it is like, there's always those scenes that like, I wish I could remember a specific one because there's always ones that when I see them, I'm like, Oh, yeah, that's the friendship that I want.

[00:22:18] But I imagine that is like my entire inner circle of like, this group of people that like, Just get along and do all the same things or like maybe bandmates that get to hang out and do stuff all the time And but I never I never accomplished it like it's never happened. So it's kind of a funny lie I've told myself my entire life.

[00:22:36] Hmm 

[00:22:37] Josiah: Yeah I don't I don't think this was the show that I was specifically thinking of but one that came to mind that is illustrative of it is Parks and Rec Especially towards the end of the show where like they've been through so much and they kind of go like drift apart and then come back together there's something about the people who see you and, and to your point, yeah, they accept you in your totality, uh, but also they, they know how to be there for you when it counts.

[00:27:27] Right. In, in the way that like means the most to you. 

[00:27:31] Cody: Yeah. Yeah. Not just being there for you, but being there for you in your language and in your context. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:27:36] Josiah: Yeah. And there's also something to be said for. Just going through shit together, right? Yeah. That's really where, uh, where those bonds are formed.

[00:27:47] Yeah. So I would kind of going back to what I was saying earlier if I can remember, cause we went on a big tangent there. Uh,

[00:27:58] yeah. So friendships especially always get cut when it comes to the like energy calculus. And I had the story that I just don't fit in anywhere. And cause that's what I was feeling like when I kind of go to these different groups or meet different people where there's this sort of initial like, yeah, there might be something here.

[00:28:22] But the more they get to know me, the more that they will think I'm weird or not want to spend time with me or Whatever, like they, they might find me amusing at first or like a novelty, but once they get to know me, they're really gonna, they're not going to feel that way. And I don't know if I ever really said this consciously to myself, but it was, it was this underlying thing that came out in all these different ways and I was just unpacking that a bit.

[00:28:52] And my coach said something along the lines of like, you know, what would it look like if you showed up fully as yourself, no matter what. No matter what group you're a part of. Yeah. You know, what would that look like? And do you think that that would push more people away from you? Do you think that would draw more people to you?

[00:29:13] And like what is the evidence in your life? You know, that when you fully show up as yourself, are people drawn to you or are they pushed away from you? I'm just like, Oh shit. Because what I'm realizing is that that story was just something that gave me an excuse. To not engage. Right. And, and feel that, you know, and push through that anxiety.

[00:29:35] Yeah. And actually be vulnerable with a group of people that I haven't really built a ton of trust with yet. Like that's really what it is. Yeah. Uh, and, and so, you know. 


Intentional Connections
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[00:29:46] Josiah: I've been practicing some of that more where I will on a regular basis now just send little text messages to people that aren't in my daily orbit.

[00:29:57] Because that's the thing is like, if you're not in my daily orbit, you basically don't exist. Like I just, I just get tunnel vision and, and so being intentional about sending out just a text message and something that at least it's just a little bit vulnerable. 

[00:30:12] Cody: Mm hmm. 

[00:30:12] Josiah: And man, I have just seen like, that's been a game changer for me.

[00:30:16] I bet. Having people, especially because what it's doing is it's, it's breaking down all of those stories that I tell myself about how they'll react before I send it. 

[00:30:24] Cody: Yeah. 

[00:30:24] Josiah: And I'm like, you know, I'm thinking like, oh, they're going to think this is weird. Cause I haven't talked to him in a while. Or, you know, this is, they'll probably come back with some sort of snarky comment or something like that.

[00:30:33] But like, everyone's like, Oh, man. Thank you for reaching out. I've been thinking about you too, man. How are you? You know, I was one of those people. Yeah. 

[00:30:39] Cody: Yeah. And, and, and to see it from the other side. Yeah, it's, I, I knew, I kind of knew what you were doing by sending me a text that was like that in that tone.

[00:30:49] And I, but I was so appreciative of the text and also acknowledged, not only acknowledged what you were doing, but acknowledged that I wanted to do the same. Like I was the, I've, I've, I've wanted to do that too. I've wanted to be the one that reached out and said, yeah. Just to say hey, you know appreciate your existence in my life and you know, I think you're great And so, you know, I responded Yeah, like I'm sure everybody else did just kind of responded in kind and said the same same kind of similar things But I've tried My version of that is whenever anybody says I love you.

[00:31:20] I say it back. Mm hmm because I didn't do that Even as recent as like not that long ago people say but if I because and it's it's weird because I mean before that I probably only told like my immediate family that I loved them like it was weird for me and my brother to say we love each other outside of the context of the family unit.

[00:31:40] Yeah like that's how like off putting it was almost. and that's something that like a smaller, maybe a smaller steps than reaching out and texting people, but is something it is. The sentiment of it is there that I, somebody says something nice to me. Somebody tries to be vulnerable with me. I reciprocate with vulnerability.

[00:32:01] I don't acknowledge and appreciate the vulnerability. I just reciprocate with the same vulnerability. And I've been trying to do that in, in regular conversations as well. Somebody wants to open up to me, then I. I try to be a safe space for that vulnerability while also being like, okay, my turn, like I can be vulnerable.

[00:32:18] Like it's, it's okay to take this risk. Like, just try it and see what happens, you know? And that's kind of the inner narrative that's been happening for me. That's trying to overcome the same narrative that you have that, and then had at least that, you know, Oh, if they really know me, like, they're not going to like that.

[00:32:31] They're not going to want to be in my life or be part of that mess, you know, or whatever the. Subconscious narrative is my conscious narrative in that context was always. Oh, well, they can't like I think I talked myself into thinking I enjoyed the the back and forth of Being able to filter myself. I think I enjoyed having that caught that control And a lot of that definitely comes from being in churches, evangelical circles.

[00:33:01] Sure. Cause like you have to, or you could lose your job depending on what it is. And you can't just say whatever you want or be whatever you want, or you immediately get in trouble for it. And I got in trouble a lot. So both as a child, as an adult working for churches, both, both sides of it. And and so it's, it's kind of hard for me to not to talk about this and not bring that, that component up.

[00:33:21] But it's a tough thing to try to overcome that And choose to be vulnerable, not just as a five, but I think anybody just everybody has their own different version of it. But yeah. 

[00:33:32] Josiah: Yeah, and you know, I'm glad you brought that up actually about church because we talked about this on the community episode and this is similar, you know, adjacent topic.

[00:33:40] Yeah. But that is another thing that I, had been longing for. And we've talked about that. You know, what is, what does community look like outside of church? Because that's really the only model of, of community that I had ever known. And maybe with a semi community feeling from certain jobs that I've been in.

[00:34:03] Uh, but you know, how do you get that? And, and, and churches is a, it's like a, it's a poor model of community anyway, but at least it's some model. Right. And, and how do you do that? Without church. How do you do that without that excuse to get together? And I think I finally found something. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's crazy because I actually, uh, it almost feels a little culty sometimes, but it's just because there's ritual involved and anytime there's ritual, there can be sort of emotional baggage for me.

[00:34:46] Sure. Yeah. And it's, but I ha, but I can, but I can, Push through that and kind of bring myself back into the moment because I've gotten so much from it and So I'll just say it out loud because I've been talking around it. It's a big deal now. 


The Ice Plunge Community
---

[00:35:01] Josiah: I've been doing ice plunging yeah, and and it's so funny because I always made fun of the people who would do that.

[00:35:11] Like they post on social media about it. Yeah. I don't like that. So stupid. And I, you know, I'd, I'd watch like Huberman and the podcast on cold exposure and all of the health benefits. Cause there's a ton of them. And yeah. Uh, but I still just wasn't, I wasn't in it. Uh, but I had to get to this point where I was just looking for something and a right, uh, Around the time I had that conversation, when I was talking to my coach about it I run into an old friend or acquaintance.

[00:35:37] He was probably more in the acquaintance bucket. I would consider him a friend now. But he had said, Oh, hey, you know, there's a group of us who meet out at the creek, uh, you know, every Saturday morning at 8 a. m. And, uh, we jump in the cold water together. Do you want to come? I'm like, you know what? I will and I'll try it and I did it and it was amazing.

[00:36:01] I, because the first thing we do is we do some meditation, just kind of center. And then we do the Wim Hof breathing, which is like three rounds of 30 full breaths where you breathe all the way in and just kind of let it out. And then you, on the last one, you breathe all the way out and you hold it for as long as you can.

[00:36:24] Hmm. Like deflated and I've gotten all the way up to like a minute, 20 seconds. Wow. Which is good. Yeah. And then, and then you take a big breath in and, uh, and hold that for like 15, 20 seconds and like squeeze while you're doing it. Yeah. And then, and then like, and then you just kind of like go and relax for a little bit and then do a second round and the third round.

[00:36:47] And there's something about that too, that How just that that couple of extra seconds of not taking the breath where you know that like this is just my body panicking 

[00:36:57] Cody: Yeah, 

[00:36:57] Josiah: but I'm okay. I know I can take a breath when I need to. I can go a few more seconds and just doing that on a regular basis. It, the, just the psychological component of that is, I can, I've noticed a difference, like for me especially with anxiety.

[00:37:14] And, uh, and so anyway, then when, after we do the, the breath work, we go and we, Have these like cattle troughs that we we could only do it in the creek Up until like mid may because then the water got too warm And and so then we moved to just like going downtown A guy in the group has a local business and he just like opens up the garage door and we have Like three or four cattle troughs that we have stored in there and we just fill them up with water And then someone while we're doing that has gone and got a like a Shit ton of ice.

[00:37:48] Yeah, like filling up the back of their car with ice and then we just dump it in and Wow There's any anywhere from like five of us to 20 of us depending on the day Wow And so it's yeah, it's it's it's crazy. And this is 

[00:38:02] Cody: how many times every Saturday every Saturday 

[00:38:04] Josiah: a. m Wow, okay, and I and so then you get in the ice with the buddy And, uh, and while, uh, and then, you know, in, in each cattle trough, and so they're usually like, depending on like, we'll either do six or we'll do eight.

[00:38:20] And while you're in the ice, you are Like two 

[00:38:22] Cody: people in one cattle trough? Yeah. 

[00:38:24] Josiah: Okay. 

[00:38:24] Cody: I was like, were they side by side? I was trying to imagine. Okay. So it's 

[00:38:27] Josiah: called, it's called Ice Buddies. Shout out to James at Ice Buddies. Uh Dot com. Yeah. Amy. Amy was like when she first heard about it and heard the name, she's like, it was a real missed opportunity to not call it ice ice buddies.

[00:38:41] Yeah, that's true. So anyway, we're, you know, while you're in the ice, you say something you want to let go of. And then you say something that you want to hold onto, something you're grateful for. And it's, it's a simple ritual and it's transformed me in ways like I hadn't expected the first time I did it.

[00:39:06] Uh, afterwards, like I felt so good, like physiologically, I'm like, okay, I got to do that again. 

[00:39:10] Cody: Yeah. 

[00:39:11] Josiah: But I also felt this like almost kind of spiritual connection. And, and then as I started showing up every week, like I went from like mid May until a couple of weeks ago. So this is, yeah, until the end of August, like I met, I made everything every single Saturday.

[00:39:26] Cody: Wow. 

[00:39:27] Josiah: And then it was Amy's birthday and then we had, uh, we went out of town so I, I missed two weeks. But then I went back again last Saturday and it's like, I miss it when I'm not, I don't go and you're wearing like a WhatsApp group and I see everybody posting about it. I'm just like, Oh man. And.

[00:39:42] Man, there's a lot of stuff, uh, a lot of, a lot of benefits that I've gotten from it. But on the friendship side, it's been like a really interesting exercise for me to show up. And at first I was very uncomfortable and one, I didn't know who I was like in the woods with. Like, I had no idea.

[00:39:58] Yeah. I didn't know any of them except my one friend who invited me. You didn't know what was going to happen when you got out of the creek? I know, yeah! I'm like, what's happening? Yeah. Am I going to get baptized? Am I going to get murdered? Why do we all have these white cloths? Oh god. 


Bonding Through Shared Experiences
---

[00:40:11] Josiah: Uh, and so, yeah, I, I, I didn't, but, but as you kind of go through this ritual, you're getting to know That the, the moment different in the different in the ice, uh, it's a very vulnerable moment.

[00:40:25] Cody: Yeah. 

[00:40:26] Josiah: And, and then another thing that happens when you do the cold exposure is it boosts your oxytocin, which is like the bonding hormone. And so we're, we're doing something hard together, even if it's just, you know, Even it's just a few minutes at a time, uh, but it's, it's hard. Like it's hard to sit in that ice for multiple minutes, especially like when you get started.

[00:40:46] I'm a little more used to it now, but every time still, it's just like a shock to your system and then your feet and your hands freeze. Uh, but, but there's something about going through that together and choosing to go through that. It's like the, the people who show up to do that on a, uh, 8 a. m. On a Saturday, like there's a filter there.

[00:41:07] That's like if you're the type of person that would do that. We at least are on that level. It's true, you know, and it means that we have a common like starting point and There are people in the group that you know I probably this has been a great exercise for me too because I would have like I did prejudge them Yes You know based off of like the type of person that they were and and maybe the way that they were acting when I first met Them and stuff like that, but every person that I've like And that was just in the beginning because I kept getting to know people and I'm like, man, like, I just want to hang out with you more.

[00:41:39] And, and it's just because it's, it's, it's a filter for people who are willing to show up and do the hard thing, which means that there will like, like there's a, they have a growth mindset, which is kind of what I was getting at before. It's like, we're all trying to work on ourselves. Right. And, and so, I, I've just, I've felt like I've, I've bonded with people in a way I haven't in a really long time, maybe ever.

[00:42:04] Cody: Yeah. 

[00:42:04] Josiah: And, you know, at least like in that sort of like accelerated timeline of people that I went from not knowing at all to like feeling like, you know what, I could call that I could call any, you know, any one of five or six people in this group up and they would, if they could like drop what they're doing and, you know, if I needed them, they would come help me.

[00:42:23] And, uh, And it's weird because if you kind of step back and look at it, it's like, okay, I met them once a week, a few months ago. Yeah. Like that doesn't make any sense. But there's a, there's like an accelerated bonding in it of, you know, just that little bit of that little bit of vulnerability, that little bit of doing the hard thing together.

[00:42:48] Once a week after a while man, you you just form these bonds and I've noticed Probably six weeks into it. I'm like, I don't have that that craving anymore That like there was something about it. That was satiating that part of me. That was just really like yearn for community Yeah, and I'm, I, I'm experiencing it.

[00:43:09] And, and so it's, it's really cool. I, I've learned a lot about friendship from that too, of practicing when I show up just acknowledging the stories, letting go of them and just letting myself be me. And then, and then as much as I can, minimizing all of the post analyzing of the, 

[00:43:29] Cody: me being me. 

[00:43:31] Josiah: Yeah. But, but the more that I do that, the more people are drawn to me and the more I'm able to like show up and be vulnerable and connect and then, and then get to know them and, and every time all of the, the, This, the preconceived stories that I, of how I thought that they would perceive me or how I perceive them.

[00:43:52] They're like proven wrong every single time. Right. And so, you know, after like four or five, six times of this, you're like, okay, I'm starting to get it now. Yeah. 


Realizing Self-Imposed Isolation
---

[00:44:00] Josiah: You know, I, I made this way harder than it needs to be. There are definitely certain people that, uh, that I will click with over others, but I was the one making myself the outcast.

[00:44:14] I wasn't being pushed out. Sure. Yeah. And. And there was a safety in that for me, and there was, uh, you know, it was, like I said, it was an excuse. It was an excuse to not do the hard thing and be vulnerable. 


The Challenge of Authenticity
---

[00:44:29] Cody: Yeah, I've definitely had the same, same experience probably just different content, but same experience, uh, in terms of trying to, trying to get to a level with people that I didn't know was possible because I just didn't know how.

[00:44:46] And I also had a hard time imagining what that would look like. So like, kind of just piggybacking off what you were just saying, I think that it's, it's so hard to overcome that block where you, I, like, I judge myself on what I think people are going to think of me.

[00:45:03] Right. If I am my true self, whatever that is like, and But I have, I've started trying to think about it in terms of like, how do I react to other people being themselves? 

[00:45:13] Josiah: Yeah. 

[00:45:14] Cody: Like when somebody is truly themselves with me and I can feel that I feel that authenticity coming from them. I only love it and them more usually right and I trust them exponentially more like it's just like it's it's not even a comparable thing and so like it's like suddenly you've reached a new place when you feel that not only are they being themselves but they're also like being honest they're maybe talking about deeper topics when they're ready to but you don't even have to get into deep conversation to be yourself with people and that be the first impression like my goal in my life now is to learn how to be A vulnerable authentic person when I meet somebody like regardless of what they think about me and regardless if I want to be friends with them Like that's the ideal for me is like I want to be myself always right?

[00:45:56] Yep But right now I'll settle for being myself with the people I care about. And I'm still working, uh, towards that, I think. And a lot of things have helped, you know, getting to know myself, getting to know that I, you know, am on the spectrum a little bit, that I have Asperger's, that I barely, I better understand maybe the things that I was most afraid of and the most insecure about.

[00:46:15] Yeah. Are always the things that I thought, oh no one else is going to want this because I'm embarrassed of it. So, you know, I'm projecting my own feelings towards self onto other people. 

[00:46:24] Josiah: Yeah. And 

[00:46:25] Cody: not wanting to be that way. 

[00:46:26] Josiah: And there's, there's like Um, different versions of be quote unquote being myself right around other people, because I think that the version that appeals to us the most is like the Sherlock version, right?

[00:46:38] Where it's like, I'm so good at whatever it is I am, I can be a complete asshole and nobody can say anything about it. And so I have I get to be myself the dream. 


The Influence of Media on Personal Growth
---

[00:46:45] Josiah: And the funny thing about that is because you and I both, you know, sort of romanticize that concept. And in reality, he's not being himself.

[00:46:57] He's not like he's using that as a deflection because then you see like his relationship with Watson and how he needs Watson so much, but he won't. I don't think I've ever admitted, like, act like he, like, act like he needs him, like, he can't let himself be vulnerable, right? 

[00:47:12] Cody: And he's also a drug addict.

[00:47:14] Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of things. And that goes to a more, uh, current version, a more current, uh, version of Sherlock that I recently watched with Madison because she'd never seen it was house. And it's funny that the, I think we've talked about house before in earlier seasons. And I probably have a different opinion now than I did.

[00:47:32] Even then I can't watch it now. 

[00:47:33] Josiah: Yeah. 

[00:47:34] Cody: I watched it all the way through, right? And we finished it and I didn't, it was, this was the least I liked the show ever because I, what the things that I used to idolize about him, I now hated and felt myself longing for him to just be like fucking honest with somebody about something.

[00:47:53] You know what I mean? I got so so aggravated him and I'm like, stop being a child. Like, what are you doing? And so isn't that, but man, this is so amazing. Like, if you think about how far we've grown marker of growth, 

[00:48:06] Josiah: that's how we measure our growth is like watching a TV show again, 10 years later and how we respond to it.

[00:48:11] Cody: Sure. Yeah. 


Emotional Impact of TV Shows
---

[00:48:12] Cody: You know, and like, and the things that the things that really get to me, you know, like you were talking about, like what better group of people in a show Know each other more than in the good place because they're all dead. Yep. They have nothing to lose and and that show It's it's it's that show Of course parks and rec there's certain aspects of the office.

[00:48:36] There are shows that will Always make me cry like now things that never used to make me cry, right? Like they always make me cry. And so, it's, it's like the scene in the office that is an actual authentic scene between John Krasinski and Steve Carell when it was Steve Carell's last episode.

[00:48:53] And they're in the office and he says, I'll see you tomorrow. We'll have lunch tomorrow. And then they both start crying in that scene. That's a real scene. That's real emotions, real tears. And that's why it hits so hard because it's authentic. It's real because they said they did like 20 takes of that because they couldn't keep it together.

[00:49:08] They just kept crying. And so, that makes me respect that episode so much more in that scene and them being able to keep it. And so many things about those shows, but it's always the authenticity between usually two different people. And it's the things that You know, my brain used to idolize certain things.

[00:49:24] Now it looks to what ideals, you know, it wants to go towards now. And I find that one, what I look for in friendships is very different. As you were kind of saying, right, you want those, you want that, like, You want that equalizer for you with the, with the cold plunge. You had the equalizer of the type of person who's going to wake up at 80 and want a Saturday, not me.

[00:49:46] And although the more you talk about it, the more I want to do it. Right. And also we could talk about this more later, but on a personal note the fact that it does mean so much to you and you've asked me to do it makes me now want to do it more, if that makes sense. You know what I mean? 


The Role of Vulnerability in Friendships
---

[00:50:00] Cody: Cause like, again, like I was saying earlier, like, I want to say yes to the opportunities to be vulnerable with somebody more.

[00:50:06] And so if that's something that's really important to you, you should have framed it that way. This thing that's really important for me and has changed my life and experience. I want you to also experience with me. I would have been like, okay, I'll send 

[00:50:16] Josiah: that to you in a text tomorrow. 

[00:50:17] Cody: Now you know how to do it.

[00:50:19] But yeah, I just think that there's, there's my, the way that I look at friendships or relationships in my life is so much different even than it was a year ago or two years ago. Like, I can't, there's been this kind of rapid growth for me on an emotional level, I think in the last year or so that I've never experienced before.

[00:50:38] And it's only because I gave myself permission to do it. I was able to finally start dealing with a lot of the emotional baggage that I've been carrying on, you know, just for so long. And I think that it's It was a much needed moment in my life for a long time, and much, it should have happened much earlier, but it happens when it happens, and I think that that's, that's definitely changed the way that I see, like I see shows, I see things, like there's, there's an episode of another show, Welcome to Wrexham, if anybody's ever seen it.

[00:51:06] Amazing show about soccer, but there is an episode in the first season and it's the second to last episode in the season and they talk about the friendship between the two main characters in the show and this is a documentary. So it's real ish and real. curated shots. But they talk about that and how like bromance has happened.

[00:51:27] And because the whole fact that bromance exists is because men, two men can't say that they're in a friendship with each other. And and just how like, it's such an unhealthy place that the term bromance probably came from, you know? And because it's like the woman that's talking about it, she's a psychologist.

[00:51:43] She's like, yeah, we, women don't have a word for being friends with each other. We just call each other friends. And I was just like, man. A lot of, uh, a lot of, uh, missed opportunity there in terms of men being able to just kind of own up to what they have. But then it switched to your relationship with your father and it's all of these kids and their fathers and how they share this, this love of soccer in this town in Belgium for or not in Belgium, in Wales.

[00:52:08] And how it's like their entire life is built around the soccer and like, I share this with my son because my dad shared this with me. And it's such a pure thing to share. And I, I have, I haven't cried that hard since I saw the end of The Good Place. And it got me so hard. There was a long time I couldn't talk about the episode without choking up.

[00:52:29] Like that's how much it impacted me. Now granted I watched it, you know, it was so good. It's probably a little bit coming out of COVID. My brother had moved away. My dad was, you know, and my dad also has moved away at this point. And so being away from the, my brother and my dad also affected that a little bit, but it was just like, you know, I think that was a big moment for me because it was like, I think my brain was, I allowed myself to think the thought of, think the thought of, you know, like this is actually what I want in life.

[00:52:56] Like I want to know and be known at this level that it means that much to me that I would want to share. 


Substance Use and Authenticity
---

[00:53:01] Cody: The most important things to me like oftentimes I've in my life I've not invited people to things that I really cared about because I was afraid that they wouldn't share it the same way I did Mmm, and yeah, what if it ruins that experience for me, you know, and and so but I think that Not giving somebody the opportunity to rise to the occasion of being into something as much as you are is Robbing them of that chance to be better friends with you also and so Yeah, I've been trying to not do those things You know, another aspect that also affected a lot of my adult life with friendships is how much, uh, how easily you can be dependent on like, substances to make you a friendlier person.

[00:56:44] Okay, and I think that that's also played a huge part and I would always be like, oh, you know I'm I'm and I truly believe alcohol brings out your most true self. A lot of people say You may not remember it. You may drink too much that you become an asshole, but you know what I have been terribly blackout drunk in my life, and I was never an asshole.

[00:57:07] I've never been angry. I don't, I'm not aggressive. I'm just not an aggressive and angry person generally. And so like, I feel like no matter what you put inside my body, I'm just not going to be that person. Some people just have it in them. It's, it is what it is. And that's just a reality, I think. But I think that alcohol does remove, it just removes the filter.

[00:57:24] And so in my case, as a five, it removes my ability to have control over what comes out of my mouth or what I'm, how I'm being around somebody. And in my case, it generally meant that I was, I always noticed people laughed a lot more at me and when I was saying things. And. Everybody would always be like, Oh, I really like drunk Cody.

[00:57:42] Like he's so like fun and bubbly and happy and talks a lot and goofy. And let's see, like you've asked Madison, she knows that version of me all the time, regardless of what, you know, as I'm sure Amy does with you, right? You're just, we are goofier and sillier with the people that we know the most and that have seen us in different contexts.

[00:58:01] And so, But, and you know, and I think that I've, uh, there was a, there's this over the last year I've kind of stopped drinking alcohol. And so, my immediate thing, I did it originally just to try the THC products that I sell. And we've kind of, you, listeners have been through that journey with me a little bit in the last season of the show, but I, he works for a distributor.

[00:58:19] He doesn't sell them. Like they're not 

[00:58:21] Josiah: like Cody's THC and we're going to start plugging into the show. 

[00:58:26] Cody: Uh, go to codyjamesharris. com for, come get high with Cody. They're not CDs. Um, Yeah, no, I do work for an alcohol distributor and we sell a, a pretty crazy amount of THC products these days. And and so I chose to do dry January this past year and tried to, I took that opportunity to try all the products that we have so that I could better communicate to customers.

[00:58:49] And what I found was It's it's a pretty good trade off, honestly. 


The Effects of THC vs. Alcohol
---

[00:58:53] Cody: But I find that it doesn't it doesn't take away necessarily that control of It doesn't, TTC doesn't make, give me the kind of buzz or high that I don't feel like I have control over how I'm being around people, but it does make me completely okay with being authentic.

[00:59:12] Like I don't, that anxiety that I feel all the time goes away and it's like that component is removed. So instead of removing the filter, it removes the need for a filter because I don't want to filter it anymore. I don't care. 

[00:59:25] Josiah: Yeah, so it's, it's almost like, uh, induced 

[00:59:28] Cody: acceptance. Yes. Yeah. Of self and surroundings.

[00:59:33] Yeah. And, and I think that I still, I mean, I still do it pretty consistently, not as much as I was drinking alcohol there for a while. And I think that was a big component of why I wanted to, or a big proponent for why I wanted to quit and and just try something else. And I just kind of got tired of the way it made me feel.

[00:59:49] And so, what I found is, is that THC was a much more interesting experiment in that regard, because the fact that it didn't remove, forcibly remove the filter, but made me okay with the filter not being there, has carried over into when I'm not doing THC. Right. And so it's because it's a more sobering experience.

[01:00:08] It just is. It's like, it's just not the same as alcohol. And so, alcohol is a far more dangerous substance in terms of self and others. And I think that you know, not to be on a soapbox or anything, but if you're trying to be, If I just wouldn't I want to get to a place where I don't have to rely on substances to alter my personality, you know what I mean?

[01:00:28] Don't do drugs kids I'm, actually saying you probably should no, you can't say that Why not? You can't tell kids to take drugs kids shouldn't be listening to this show It's not rated for them We say fuck all the time This is clearly for adults. I am not giving any advice to children at all or anyone 

[01:00:49] Josiah: You Anywhere.

[01:00:50] Cody: That's true. There's no advice here at all. I am. We're talking purely personal experience live. Are you happy? This is for entertainment purposes only need that disclaimer What was the was the the lawyer bells going off in your head? Oh god, oh god, he's recommending drugs to the public

[01:01:10] Um, i'm actually saying the opposite i'm saying that i've been on a journey out of substances and using them to alter my You Not my personality, to alter my behavior. Like rewire your brain, kind of? Yeah, and I mean, and I experienced bits and pieces of this, the literal like two times ever that I did shrooms back in the first season.

[01:01:32] I mean, it's been years now, but that was the first experience I had with what it felt like to really not care what other people thought. And not even, not even have an inner narrative in my own head. Like it, everything just goes really quiet and it's so still and so nice and so peaceful. And yeah, it's hard to not want to self medicate with those kinds of things whenever you're feeling really, really stressed.

[01:01:52] But whenever, uh, whenever that natural come down from all of the stress and anxiety happens, that's when I really want to relax a lot of the time. And that's when I've, I've found myself wanting to use it more than an anxiety inducing moments. But. 


Navigating Personal Boundaries
---

[01:02:05] Cody: I think the important part is to, is that I'm trying to get to a place and I feel that place now where I don't feel like I need anything else to try to be okay with being myself around other people.

[01:02:18] And, and it's, it's honestly been a pretty great experience of similar to what you've had with the text and things like that. Like, I don't, people have only commented that they felt like they know me more and that they like it. They haven't had any kind of like negative experience from it. And so, having that realization that it was more my own projection of my own insecurities and my own fears onto other people was definitely a big step I feel like in the right direction and turn and try to get to a place where I am actually a good friend.

[01:02:49] Because if I can't be a good friend. Why do I expect other people to be good friends? Yeah, that's a very good point. Yeah.

[01:02:55] Josiah: I think about THC. Like at its best or just any kind of altered state of consciousness like that as a teacher.

[01:03:04] Yeah. That's, that's kind of the intention I go into it with of like, okay, what am I going to learn about myself, about my perception of reality and what, like what, what's it going to teach me? Sure. And, and then I try to take those learnings back into my day to day of, you know, what does it actually feel like to be that silly?

[01:03:25] What does it actually feel like to just. Get up and dance and like yeah, there's there's all of a sudden there's this rhythm Even when there's no music, there's like this rhythm that I feel right that I'm letting my I'm not moving my body I'm letting my body move to that, you know, and you know, just things like that where I'm I'm leaning into trying to have Other sensory experiences as well.

[01:03:49] I think that's part of the ice too. It's like this whole different sensory experience and it shocks you out of your current, you know, rut and makes you hyper aware of the present moment. Sure. Yeah. And, and doing that, doing that every week too is, is helping me just be, I don't know, honestly be a better friend to myself.

[01:04:12] Yeah. The friend you were looking for was inside you the whole time. 

[01:04:18] Cody: Anyway, we'll see you next time. 

[01:04:22] Josiah: I can't believe I just did that unintentionally. You 

[01:04:25] Cody: just got there on your own. I guess there's some truth. There's a nugget of truth in that sentence, isn't there? We can't help but get there if we're looking for the truth.

[01:04:34] Alright, well, on that note though, I will say I think that is why Hey. I think that's the main difference between alcohol and THC, in that way. I love 

[01:04:45] Josiah: where this conversation is going, by the way. 

[01:04:48] Cody: I talk about it all day every day for work, so it's applicable. One of them, THC does put you in your body, like your body feels heavy and you can feel like the weight and gravity of, of, of, of your, your being in that space.

[01:05:05] And I feel, feel so 

[01:05:06] Josiah: much more of everything when I'm in that 

[01:05:08] Cody: state. Yeah. And depending on what you're, what you've taken, it can be a paranoid experience. It can be a many of those. Yeah. And so have I. And honestly, I've, I've taken it a lot in different contexts of just being able to like it. Because of the way my brain works and especially maybe it's I don't know if it's being on the spectrum if it's I don't know if it's also that I have ADHD and maybe that just don't have not medicated for that.

[01:05:30] But my brain is going so fast all the time. And yes, I know this is like a little bit of a we're doing like a side quest conversation right now. But tangent, tangent, tangent. Thank you. But, uh, yeah. It has helped me to be more reflective in times of stress or anxiety when I need, I'm like, I need to focus.

[01:05:48] I need to think through like solutions on what I'm trying to deal with right now. How do I fix this? And THC has been wildly helpful for that or CBD or whatever, just like something that like slows your brain down just a little bit when like, it's a lot better than probably taking like, uh, Not Ritalin, but oh, yeah, I don't know anything about drugs.

[01:06:08] The new thing I'm not anything newer than Ritalin that people have been on for the last 20 years for 80. So now you're 

[01:06:13] Josiah: making recommendations on new drugs 

[01:06:17] Cody: Prescription drugs No, actually, I'm not I'm saying I think it's better than Whatever that is that people get on for focusing. What is it called for?

[01:06:27] Adderall, thank you I feel like it does a little bit of that. It helps me like hyper focus on something without being like too out of it and I can just like, you know, slow down a little bit. So in that way, yeah, the things that I have felt and learned and noticed the, the, the strong kind of contrast of differences between alcohol and THC, I have been able to take that out of that experience and say, even when I'm.

[01:06:48] I have nothing in my system at all. I'm fully sober. I still want to have those same experiences and move Kind of beyond that in terms of like I don't want to be dependent on the substance to feel or be a certain way I want to be that way on my own and alcohol doesn't allow you to do that. It just doesn't and so Yeah, I think it's been a really interesting growth experience for me in terms of realizing what life can look like without any substances in my life.

[01:07:11] And, and, and not being afraid of that in terms of like, now not being at war within myself with being this person that I definitely want to be my own true self while not having the security of a substance that like forces that out of me, you know? Yeah. So back to 

[01:07:27] Josiah: friendships. 

[01:07:28] Cody: Yes, and I will say this, going back into, looping back into this, I think that it's something that the narrative of, that is, I think the core part of why, why I have always held back from friendships is actually because of It's so, I love talking about TV shows and characters and movies and why I originally loved House and why I love, you know, Sherlock or any character like that who's like the smart one who's just, just can't relate to everybody because of how much he knows.

[01:07:57] The superiority. And like, he doesn't need anybody. Right. You know, he could be fully independent. He's fine being by himself playing his violin in the office while tripping on opium. You know, he's totally okay with it. He doesn't give a shit. But deep down he does right and right, but we we see what we want to see.

[01:08:12] Yep in those situations I think 

[01:08:14] Josiah: yeah, which busts the myth that fives are too independent to need friendships, right? Right and I I think that like house is a perfect example of a character that Just is the epitome Yeah, pretending like you don't like convince convincing yourself you don't need anyone and going to Such length to prove that to yourself that you just end up pushing everybody away.

[01:08:42] Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:08:44] Cody: Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's just, it's such a silly myth because we can't, we tell that to ourselves on a subconscious level. Because consciously, as fives who know lots of things, we know that it's, it's fundamental. It's intrinsic to being a human. Connection is. Well, and we pride ourselves 

[01:09:02] Josiah: in being, Yeah.

[01:09:02] Yeah. And competent and capable. Right. Right. And so part of that is like, well, if, if what you're doing makes me feel vulnerable, I can lean into, you know, my strength, which is being capable. And that's how I convince myself that I'm capable of not needing anyone or anything. Plus how, 

[01:09:23] Cody: I mean, I've also had this, I've also had the subconscious narrative of like this story being played in my head of how vulnerability is weakness anyway.

[01:09:31] Yeah. And, and, and maybe that's partially, it's partially being a five, partially being, you know, male in America and getting the negative sides of, of, of society a lot where it's like I, I can't, I, I didn't see my dad cry until I was an adult, you know, and it's like not having a lot of examples of people like my dad is definitely a person who's like me a lot, right?

[01:09:55] We look alike. We're the same personality type. We have a lot in common. And I knew that from it, like at the core of who I was, I knew that from a young age that I'm a lot like my dad, like it was just an, it was a conscious thing. Yeah. And my brother even more so and I've, I've still, I don't, I've never seen my, like I've never seen my brother cry.

[01:10:13] So like, you know, it's like you grow up in certain households, you grow up in certain contexts where like, was it okay to show feeling? Was it not? Like when I was really, really little, my parents thought I had no sense of humor. I can't remember if we've talked about this on the podcast or not. Apologize.

[01:10:27] Okay. Yeah. I think we have. So yeah. Apologize. I 

[01:10:29] Josiah: think it was the family episode maybe. Yeah. 

[01:10:31] Cody: Maybe. Maybe. But it still applies in this episode in this conversation of like feeling like being vulnerable being feeling emotion was kind of um Not, you know, emotionally beaten out of me, I guess, in the sense of like it was, it was, it was made clear it wasn't okay to feel these emotions.

[01:10:50] Granted, from my, my parents perspective, it wasn't them trying to make me not feel things. It was making them, they, they thought I needed a sense of humor. They didn't think, everything got to me and I took everything literally. Wouldn't great if there was Asperger's diagnoses back then. But cause they did not have the tools afforded to them to know what was going on.

[01:11:09] But I think that i i it's It's taken a long time for me. I've never, I've never been the person who thought that guys shouldn't show emotion or that it's not okay to go to therapy or it's, you know, like all these things that are like taboo from generations before us and Gen X, all the way down to Gen X, especially like, you know, you don't go to therapy unless there's something wrong with you or something.

[01:11:31] And it's, it's just these, these, these conversations around But it's all these conversations around being, trying to find and be your authentic self. And these are tools that are, you know, afforded to us to be able to use to try to get to that place. But if you come from a background in a society too that kind of makes you, makes you feel like, and it's easy to feel like this as a five, I think where it's, it makes you feel like it's not okay to, to feel those feelings.

[01:12:01] It's not okay to feel feelings that make you vulnerable that you don't have control over because then. The lack of control or the lack of filter makes you feel vulnerable. And I think that we, I don't know, I misinterpreted the feeling of vulnerability all the time to be like weakness or out of control or The antithesis of what I saw myself as in my own head as a five and as the character that knew everything and was the, the, he was, he was the, the, the Cody in my head was the cool headed type who, who in a crisis could hold, hold the shit down.

[01:12:34] Right. And I, I think I am that person. But I can be that person while also going, Oh my God, at the same time, you know, like I can still be, I can validate my own feelings and still be the person that everybody can depend on. Like, that doesn't have to be that. Those two things can live. Yeah, I think, 

[01:12:51] Josiah: I think there's also a fear too, of if we let ourselves Uh, choose to be interdependent, uh, we might realize how dependent we actually are or we might become dependent.

[01:13:04] Like there's a fear there. Like if we let ourselves feel then, you know, the good and the bad, maybe we will become dependent on the feeling that we get from these relationships and then, and then what? Then we're really vulnerable. Right. Yeah. Then somebody has the power to hurt us. Right. Right. Yeah. Or the, or the power to make us feel smaller, or make us, you know.

[01:13:28] Feel anything. Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:13:30] Cody: Man. Yeah, that 

[01:13:31] Josiah: sounds pretty terrifying. 

[01:13:32] Cody: Yeah. 

[01:13:32] Josiah: Ha ha 

[01:13:33] Cody: ha ha ha ha ha. Yeah. I think that's an illusion of control. Oh, a hundred percent. You know, people make us feel things anyway. Yeah. Yeah. And so I definitely can. I definitely relate to that feeling. I've definitely felt that feeling.

[01:13:48] And just saying it out loud, I'm like, when you're saying it, I'm like, yeah, I definitely felt that. And that's kind of the feeling I think I've been trying to overcome for a really long time on an unconscious level. But, yeah. Alright, so to kind of sum up some of the things that we've been talking about.

[01:18:17] Josiah: Uh, we are not too independent to need friends. Yes. We tend to convince ourselves that we're the oddball in the group and that we don't really fit in. And really that's because we're afraid to be vulnerable, afraid to be ourselves. And the more that we be ourselves, the more we actually do fit in. The more people accept and, and come to want to be around us.

[01:18:44] Yeah. And the more confident we feel, the more that that happens. So, if you're looking to Start fostering more friendships as a five. Some of the things that we talked about, uh, was join some kind of club or group, something that has a filter. Like we talked about, they're like, you know, whether it's doing something crazy, like showing up at 8 a.

[01:19:05] m. Uh, or, you know, to jump in ice or, you know, like run club or something that has some element of getting you out of your You all of your just pre programmed stuff and going through it together with someone else. I'm trying to force myself to learn pickleball. Yeah. I'm trying to get a group of people to do 

[01:19:24] Cody: that, so, yeah, that's 

[01:19:24] Josiah: tough.

[01:19:25] Yeah, I will, I would love to join once I hit my Achilles heels. Achilles. Achilles heels.

[01:19:38] Cody: You didn't hear yourself say it, but I did. I know, I know. Anyway, 

[01:19:41] Josiah: uh, now all I can hear in my head is Achilles heels. So, yeah, there, there are things like that. And I think that's a good kind of practical, uh, step. making a habit out of scheduling regular. Like, check ins with people that are outside of your daily orbit. 

[01:19:59] Cody: well, and like we were saying earlier, shared interests. Like, sharing your interests with other people and inviting them to be able to come in there. Cause I feel like, Not just the surface level ones that really mean something to you. Yeah, something that really means something to you. Not the test. Not the test interest.

[01:20:13] Right. I should say that for all the fives out there, we all have our list of things. We're like, this is our little weather balloon. We're going to see what people think of us. And I think just on that note, I will say this, this is just a kind of a little one liner that I just thought of. I feel like. I think a lot of this is driven by, and I think sharing your interest is part of this, is we're so afraid to, we think that we're afraid to create space for other people in our lives, but we're actually afraid of letting, being open to people creating space, allowing us to create space.

[01:20:42] In their life. For us? Am I trying to say that? I had it in my brain just saying that. That was a really good one liner there. I already knew that I lost it in the middle. We're gonna make a t shirt.

[01:20:57] We have to make a t shirt. Someone 

[01:20:58] Josiah: please. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna have to take that out because it is a good line. No, no, okay, so what you're trying, no we have to leave that in. What, what, what you're trying to say is, I think. I was almost there. You're so close. Is that we think that we're afraid of letting, like making space for other people, but really we're afraid of other people making space for us, is that what you're saying?

[01:21:27] Cody: Yes. I was saying it like. Yeah, so I think we're afraid of making space for our true selves in our own lives And if we can't even do that, then we can't even allow other people to make space for us in their lives either 

[01:21:40] Josiah: Okay 

[01:21:41] Cody: So I think that a lot of is we project on others thinking oh I don't want to have to make space for them in my life because then what if I need them and blah blah but all of that is really just hidden under the the guise of I'm too afraid to make space in my own life for myself for who I really really am I'm afraid to even like you know And, uh, I don't have that as a safe space in my own life.

[01:21:58] Therefore, nobody else can come into this space. Cause I gotta protect this with white knuckled, you know, like, at the gates. Nobody can get in. So, I just feel like finding those ways to, those tiny ways to invite people into things that you care about. And, I mean, how easy is it to go to a, a sports game if that's what you're into?

[01:22:19] I know that I'm, I'm unique in this, that I'm a 5 that likes sports, a lot of 5s don't I feel like, cause at least 5s that I've met. But you know, whatever your interests are. And I think it's, I think it's important to share those with the people you care about or want to be friends with. It's an easy way to, to get there.

[01:22:34] Josiah: Yeah, and I think the thing that is sort of underlying all of this is being open to being vulnerable. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, and and in that to it Because I think a lot of people say that and also underestimate how difficult it can be to like Let yourself be vulnerable. Yeah, especially for certain types like fives, right and and and It's not, it's not going to come all at once, and so it's important to be patient with yourself as you work through this, because it's, you know, I'm just realizing these things at like 37 years old, like, you know, and I know that, and we don't know, yeah, and I know that there are still going to be, there are always going to be more layers.

[01:23:18] Yeah, for sure. 

[01:23:19] Cody: Well, I think and also saying that if if this sounds scary to you, because it does to me maybe, uh, maybe we should also say too, that it's completely okay to have boundaries against those things and to and to make but to make those known to the people in your life that you have those boundaries that if you need space to recharge, if you need space to get away, like, I think that that's still okay, you know, like we actually, that's a really big 

[01:23:42] Josiah: part of being vulnerable because we also tend to like we set boundaries, but we set them internally.

[01:23:50] We usually don't tell people about our boundaries. 

[01:23:52] Cody: Yeah. 

[01:23:53] Josiah: And it's because we're afraid that if we share that we have these boundaries, then we won't be accepted. Right. Right. Yeah. And so that's a big part of it too, is setting boundaries. Yeah. And also communicating those boundaries and letting it be okay.

[01:24:08] Cody: Right. Yeah, for sure. 


Active Listening and Building Intimacy
---

[01:24:10] Cody: I think that, uh, one of the things that I struggle with the most when it comes to, uh, trying to connect with somebody one on one is, uh, active listening. I'm so bad at it. I know. I'm so bad at it because my brain's always going so fast. I See it in your eyes when you stop. It's really funny.

[01:24:30] Actually, it probably stopped way before that. I'm actually actively thinking of something else at that point.

[01:24:38] But yeah, that's one thing I'm working on. I want to be better at it. I want to be able to Because I always think that like, I I think that there's a subconscious thing happening where I'm like, I need to have some the good next thing to say, you know? And, uh But if I'm doing that and I'm not listening to what you're saying, then whatever I'm going to say, this has happened multiple times in episodes.

[01:24:56] It doesn't mean any, I don't even know what I listen back. And I'm like, what was I talking about? Like I was clearly not listening to this conversation. And so. Uh, yeah, I would say like, that's a great way for sure to practice building intimacy in a small way is active listening because you're one, allowing space for the other person like we were talking about, but also you're not thinking of the next thing.

[01:25:18] You're allowing yourself to actually absorb what they're saying and feel. A real connection with what they're saying and not be holding your own yourself to your own standards of whatever perfection or greatness you're trying to be in a conversation. And so there's a level of humility that comes with that.

[01:25:33] Josiah: And, and you touched on something that I think is, is important is that active listening takes away our own sort of control. One, the conversation, but our own, uh, feeling of vulnerability. Because what we're really doing is we're trying to make sure. That we have something to say by the time this other person is finished talking, right?

[01:25:58] And we want it to be somewhat articulate so that they think we're competent and they think that we're intelligent and and all of that and Yeah, and then we've lost the thread like 

[01:26:08] Cody: yeah, and if you ever want to like face that fear start a podcast Because yeah, I never I had to I had to break that rhythm right off the bat 

[01:26:18] Josiah: For sure.


Invitation to Join the Community
---

[01:26:19] Josiah: So I think the last thing that I want to say You is if you can't find a group in person, you can always come join us at the community. I know that sounds like a shameless plug, but I'm really serious about that. I, what I said earlier about, you know, that, that filter of if you're the type of person who shows up, You know, every Saturday morning at 8 a.

[01:26:42] m. to jump in some ice, like, we can be friends. If you're the type of person that, like, listens to this podcast and, and some people binge listen to the podcast, it just blows my mind. But if you're the type of person who's listening to this and have made it this far in this episode, especially, like, we can be friends.

[01:27:00] We probably, we, we can be friends. So come hang out in the community. love to get to know you all better. Yeah, for sure. All right. Good way to end it right there. There we go. We're friends. We're friends! 

[01:27:12] Cody: Congrats, everybody! Woohoo! Goodbye!