Ep. 48 - Informational Obsessions

[00:00:00]

Discussing Informational ObsessionsIntroduction and Cold Open

[00:00:35] Josiah: Well, we're back. We're here with Sam. Welcome again, Sam.

[00:00:40] Sam: Hello, thanks for having me.

[00:00:43] Josiah: Uh, I'm really excited because this is one of those conversations where we could probably talk for hours and hours, but we won't. Hopefully. Um, you never know. Yeah, so we are talking about informational obsessions, I guess, as a five.

[00:01:05] Uh, or another way to put that is rabbit holes that we like to go down. Uh, so let's, let's start with what is a time, That you remember where you got completely obsessed or consumed by a topic. So what was that topic and how did it spark your interest?

Cody's Obsession with Conquering Fears

[00:01:24] Cody: I guess I'll go first. Um, I, a lot of the things that I think that I, um, I get obsessed about is, uh, usually like, Sometimes it's, uh, fears. You know, like if I have a fear of something, my natural, um, inclination is to learn everything there is to know about it to, you know, dissolve that fear. I've done that with flying, and I've done that with sharks. And now I'm at a place in my life where I really want to swim with sharks at some point in my life. Like great white sharks in a cage, of course But I just think that'd be a thrilling thing and an interesting way to face that fear and then flying I face that fear all the time. I'll be facing that in a couple days when I fly to my parents house um, but what that did is it turns into now I can literally watch hours of Videos of people taking off and landing And like all of the process that that does and like all the stuff that goes on behind the scenes for that And now I kind of want to be a pilot.

[00:02:26] So like one day I would love to learn how to fly So yeah, I think that that's uh, all it does is it Dilutes my passions You know what I mean like it starts spreading everywhere

[00:02:40] Josiah: Oh, you mean you get interested in a lot of things because you're trying to research your fears, basically.

[00:02:44] Cody: Right, or research anything that I'm really interested in. Lately, it's been more productive. But, if I'm thinking of things that don't have any application in my life, it's usually, like, it either starts with a fear or a curiosity, like a question I ask about, like, Hmm, I wonder why We do blank or whatever, you know, and you just start, you just go down a rabbit hole.

[00:03:07] Like lately, I've been looking at videos of ancient civilizations that lived 25, 000 years ago and how that reshapes the way that we think about humanity and society. So I

[00:03:18] Josiah: Love it.

[00:03:19] Cody: last night until like 4 a. m. Yeah,

[00:03:21] Josiah: you, did you watch ancient apocalypse? Yeah.

[00:03:25] Cody: Yeah.

[00:03:28] Josiah: Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm obsessed

[00:03:31] Cody: So instead of YouTube, it was

[00:03:32] Josiah: with that too.

[00:03:33] Cody: Yeah, it was so good. Oh, and Aliens. I've been into Aliens lately than I've ever been. So I've been looking up Aliens stuff all the time. But, outside of that. Yeah.

[00:03:42] Josiah: What about you, Sam?

Sam's Research on Primate Sexual Behavior

[00:03:44] Sam: Okay, so before I say this, I'll explain if people don't know me that I'm a sexuality researcher for a living. Because this is already weird, but like if you don't know that, it's like too weird. but I went down a rabbit hole of primate sexual behavior, specifically gorillas,

[00:04:05] Cody: Okay.

[00:04:07] Sam: because

[00:04:07] Cody: you find?

[00:04:09] Sam: it's actually so interesting. So I went to the zoo, I was watching the gorillas, I was like, I wonder about that. And it's

[00:04:15] Cody: What were they doing?

[00:04:16] Sam: They weren't doing anything sexual, but they were like in their families. Like there was one, the mom was breastfeeding the little baby gorilla and it was like, so human. And I was like, I wonder what their sexuality is like. And it turns out it's really close to human. So the point that they have, um, like missionary position sex that like basically you can watch it on YouTube or whatever, but YouTube was in debates about if they should block it as porn, because it's so similar to human.

[00:04:44] Cody: Interesting. That is interesting.

[00:04:48] Sam: you know, it's different, but otherwise like. Like

[00:04:50] Cody: Hopefully.

[00:04:51] Sam: they actually do is really similar to humans like the positions they go in It's really similar to human sexual behavior. So I think that's super fascinating. I brought it up in um a working group meeting of my any group of sexuality people and they were like Why are you talking about this?

[00:05:07] This is weird

[00:05:10] Cody: I'm guessing they're not all fives, clearly.

[00:05:13] Sam: the only five and I felt sad and shamed. So then I stopped talking about it.

[00:05:18] Josiah: I'm really curious. I'm really curious what your, what ads you get served as you're searching around the web. I, I can only imagine.

[00:05:31] Sam: That's

[00:05:31] Cody: Yeah.

[00:05:32] Sam: I get a lot, like, because I do, like, also social media about the Enneagram and sex, I get a lot of targeted Instagram ads of, like, all varieties. So I'm not sure if it's from that or from other things.

[00:05:44] Josiah: Right. 

Josiah's Deep Dives into Conspiracies and Economics

[00:05:46] Josiah: Um, so when, so for me, it's a lot of things. So, uh, and I'm, I'm wondering how much our subtypes are affected by this or our subtypes influence this because, uh, you know, Cody was talking about like fear anxieties that really, um, tend to grab his attention. Uh, Sam, obviously you're sexual subtype and, and a sexual researcher.

[00:06:12] And so like, you know, uh, for me, it's, um, the really big, like lofty questions as a social subtype that, um, like impact society. And, and also like, Get me to think completely differently about my worldview. Um, anything that like completely destroys my own worldview of something, uh, I get obsessed and it's like, it's like this itch inside my brain that I can't scratch.

[00:06:45] And so it just drives me crazy until like I can get in there deep enough to scratch it. So I've, uh, the big one, as everyone who listens to the show knows is, is UFOs was one that I really went down, um, really fast. And hard in 2020. And it didn't help that we were all, you know, sequestered. Uh, and, and then, um, and then that led to, you know, when the, like the COVID vacs came out and I started researching that like crazy, um, because I didn't.

[00:07:21] it didn't make sense to me. And then I, and then that led me down to like learning about how like medical trials are run and how to read like these studies and what a P value is and just like all of this stuff that I shouldn't have to know. But I, I got like obsessed with that whole topic. Um, and then like, you know, origins of the virus was another big one.

[00:07:44] Um, and then, and then I got super obsessed with like Bitcoin. And that whole rabbit hole and I went down that and, uh, and then that led me to like researching all about macroeconomics and the history of money and the fed. And, and then I basically became an anarchist and then I was like,

[00:08:07] Cody: yeah, I was gonna say if you

[00:08:08] Josiah: yeah,

[00:08:09] Cody: stereotypical trajectory of beginning to end then you're gonna end up I Can't say that on the podcast. You're I this is what I was going to say was you'll be you'll end up licking Elon Musk's asshole, but I Because that's the general trajectory is it's like Bitcoin like from From all the COVID conspiracies to Bitcoin to being like, know, an asshole who hates women. It's like, it's like the general, that is, you just, except for the past, the Bitcoin from beginning to Bitcoin, that was the exact trajectory.

[00:08:47] Josiah: don't fall for the propaganda, Cody.

[00:08:49] Cody: I can say the same to you. Um,

[00:08:53] Josiah: yeah, so I. So like these days, I'm, I listen to a lot of, you know, like economic podcasts and political podcasts and, uh, UFO type stuff and, uh, anything that really, uh, the ancient civilization ones is another, is another big one because I feel like there's a whole part of our history. that we don't know about.

[00:09:25] Um, and there's a conspiracy element to it of, yeah, you know, maybe people are hiding stuff from us, um, because of what it tells us about the nature of reality. Uh, but just the, you know, that that's not necessary to be also be interested in the topic. Um, and, and what that could mean, like learning about our deep ancient past, what it can mean for our present and our future.

[00:09:47] Um, so anything like that, that, uh, That could potentially change the trajectory of humanity. That's, that's the stuff I get obsessed with.

[00:09:59] Cody: Yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way about that one, lately because I've been watching, yeah,

[00:10:05]

Balancing Obsession with Productivity

[00:11:46] Josiah: when you're in that mode of being obsessed, what does that look like for you guys?

[00:11:55] Sam: The other night I stayed up late reading about object relations, which is, um, it's a standalone psychological theory, but it's also used within Enneagram theory. So, you know, each Enneagram type is associated with a particular object relations pattern. there's a book on it. I just got really into it. I stayed up till, I don't remember what time, it was probably like 1.

[00:12:18] 30, which doesn't sound that late until, you know, I have three tiny kids that wake me up at like six. the rabbit hole thing is just like, it doesn't matter if I want to stop doing it. And I think like, I need to go to sleep. I'll be very miserable tomorrow from this, like, I, it's like, you know, obsessive and addictive, like, I can't stop consuming information, basically.

[00:12:46] Cody: I think that that's maybe, I think the thing that we have in common in that regard and maybe listeners as well as like, if there's some puzzle element to what we're looking up that we want to try to solve, whether it's information, you know, Conspiracy theories, whatever it is that you said you were looking up, Sam, which I want to know more about. Uh, or, you know, I was just thinking about, like, the things that I get the most obsessed about, um, are probably, like, Uh, lately I've been looking up a lot of, like, tricks and, and practi you know, tips and tricks to, um, You know, music engineering and things that I just didn't know about, you know, logic, the program that I use, it just came out with a huge update.

[00:13:25] So I've been learning all about that. And so I can find myself being like, okay, just one more video. And then it's three hours later and it's 4am and I have messed up. Terribly, um, but and sometimes it's the same with like, um, I'm gonna just nerd out really hard right here for just a second But like lately I've been playing.

[00:13:43] Um, I love all things like zombies especially zombie games and I've been playing the Call of Duty zombies that just came out and I've been watching videos on how to all these like puzzles and Easter eggs and all the maps and there's like a hundred of them in each thing So I find myself watching way too many videos of that, but that's Fairly harmless, I think

[00:14:05] Josiah: Yeah. Um, unless 4. AM and you have to get up for work in the morning.

[00:14:10] Cody: That is true that

[00:14:11] Josiah: Yeah.

[00:14:11] Cody: my job is on the restaurant and bar Schedule, so nobody tries to contact me before 11 a. m. Most the time

[00:14:19] Josiah: Oh, that's fair. Yeah. Uh, definitely not that way when you have kids. Uh,

[00:14:23] Cody: get work text at 2 a. m

[00:14:24] Josiah: yeah.

[00:14:25] Cody: like

[00:14:26] Josiah: Oh, geez.

[00:14:27] Cody: about it and they're closing

[00:14:27] Josiah: Yeah.

[00:14:28] Cody: So

[00:14:30] Josiah: Oh, man. I, at my worst, I have just, you know, so in the, especially in the throes of, of the pandemic in 2020, it was really bad where it was like, I, I couldn't get anything done. Like I was just obsessively. Like consuming like videos and articles and whatever I could get my hands on.

[00:14:52] Um, and to the point where like I was trying to run my own business and it was. miserable because I couldn't like, even when I was working on the stuff I was supposed to be working on, there was this little thing in the back of my head of like, okay, you could take a break and go over here and, and, you know, watch this podcast episode about, you know, the UFOs and nukes and why they're so drawn to nuclear facilities and the history of how that's been covered up.

[00:15:18] Like there's, there's just like, uh, you know, it, it, it's gotten really bad. So I've, I think that I've tried to. Like these days, um, I try to have dedicated times when I can scratch that itch and also do something that is relatively productive, um, and then have clear cutoff points. Like, you know, one of the things we've talked about is like, I go for a walk every morning for usually about 45 minutes.

[00:15:45] Um, and I have like a, uh, a queue of, of podcasts episodes. always ready to go. And I listened to him at two X speed. And so I get through a lot in just like that short walk. Um, and that helps me one way, you know, I'm, I'm scratching that itch, but I'm also waking up my body and my brain at the same time, uh, which is helpful in the mornings.

[00:16:11] Cause I'm definitely not a morning person.

[00:16:14] Cody: Yep, I agree with that for sure. I think that is that's probably a good way to like separate it out too Like and so that you don't get too distracted. Maybe I don't know. I feel the same way though. I try to like Mix in the unproductive Information consumption with also productive information consumption I think stuff that I actually need in my life that I want are things that I really want to learn about right like You know, before we went to Italy, I was trying to learn Italian.

[00:16:41] Um, at least some basic form of Italian to be able to communicate. Um, you know, and so like, I got really obsessed with that for a little while, but like, and honestly, those are the ones it's like when you. It's like when you consume a meal that's really bad for you and how you feel afterwards versus when it's like super healthy And it's like maybe you didn't enjoy the information, the consumption process as much But afterwards you feel so much better about yourself And I, that's how I differentiate between the types of information I take in

The Benefits of Being a Researcher

[00:17:11] Josiah: Sam, I'm really curious how you can set, uh, Those kinds of boundaries, given that you are a professional researcher. How does that work?

[00:17:20] Cody: Yeah

[00:17:20] Sam: that is a great question. I think it helps that, um, like, I get paid to research things because The years of my life where that wasn't true, I had a lot more of like the junk food information consumption that Cody just described I haven't had a big problem with that since I started Um, my PhD, um, which I'm finished now, but just that set me on a whole trajectory of like you're allowed to go down rabbit holes.

[00:17:53] It's just like you choose them wisely and you do productive research on them. That's great. I mean, I don't think there's a better job for a five. than researcher, I don't feel like there's any way I could be happier in my professional life than I am. I feel very lucky because, like, if we don't get to do it all day, we're just withering away with boredom, like, at all times. And this is what makes us feel alive. It's just we don't want to have to stay up till 4 a. m. to do it.

[00:18:23] Josiah: Hmm.

[00:18:24] Cody: Yeah, I always thought a journalist would be a good job for a five in that way. Like I thought about being a journalist for a while, just uncovering stories and researching things all day. It just sounds like fun.

[00:18:34] Sam: And not even having to research. I did previously, too, my current life. work as a researcher for organizations where I had to research what they said.

[00:18:43] Cody: Hmm.

[00:18:44] Sam: that too. I mean, that was

[00:18:45] Cody: Yeah.

[00:18:46] Sam: Um, but even getting to choose mostly what I research is just like amazing.

[00:18:51] Cody: True.

[00:18:53] Josiah: So what is, I mean, what does that actually look like in the day to day? So you're, so you're, you're doing research and like, what are you doing with the research?

[00:19:03] Sam: Um, these days I honestly do more like clinical work, like more therapeutic coaching work. Um, but I will like deep dive into whatever problems people have going on. I researched that. Um, but then previously I would just research whatever piece of my study needed research backing. So like anything about, for example, I have a whole mini chapter in my dissertation on the psychometric that you can use to measure Enneagram type and if they're good or not and like the validity and reliability of each one and how often it's been used and what it's used for and like what's the style of it.

[00:19:45] I love doing that. It's really boring to read probably for other people. So

[00:19:50] Cody: Not us.

[00:19:50] Sam: just, yeah, I would just be like every day deep dive into the part that I was writing about. So then I have like a huge deep dive on sexuality. I have a huge deep dive on, um, uh, just Enneagram typing in general, like tons of little mini sub topics, and then I would spend the day or many days researching every, basically every piece of research has ever been done on that thing and then synthesizing it.

[00:20:19] That's how you do a literature review. So. It's very fun.

[00:20:22] Josiah: That does sound fun. That is, that is one thing that, you know, we we've talked through. The negative side of being obsessed with consuming information, but there's definitely, uh, positives around that. Like, you know, part of my job, my job is pretty complex and I have to do quite a bit of research and, and it in the past hasn't always been on things I've been super interested in, which is one of the reasons why I am excited about my new job is that it's much more aligned with.

[00:20:56] that I'm interested in. 

[00:20:59] an example of this is earlier this year when I was really, I had the bandwidth to actually start doing some content, uh, for Enneagram five.

[00:21:10] I researched the hell out of all of that. Cause that was my previous podcast, was content creation. And, um, and so I kind of dusted that off and, and then started going into all the different aspects of it from how to like the psychological pieces of copywriting all the way to like how, how to organize a system to, uh, to do it efficiently.

[00:21:36] And I. And then I put it in practice and I, I, I formed some very, very strong opinions on where social media is going, how to, uh, how to engage and how to, um, like, like basically how to create content in a way where you can test and experiment and hone your craft and, um, and start to figure out like how to win at that game.

[00:22:01] And

[00:22:02] Cody: we'll get better at it

[00:22:04] Josiah: yeah, maybe.

[00:22:05] Cody: Teach us your ways

[00:22:07] Josiah: Once, once I, once I get back into the swing of things, um, and, and so I, uh, I formed these strong opinions and then that's actually the main thing that landed me the job that I have now, because now I'm working for a social media scheduling platform and they hired me because I, in my interview I was very, very vocal about like, you know, this is where I think it's going.

[00:22:37] And here's the gaps of what you have now. And here's a place we can go where your competitors probably aren't even thinking about, but it's going to create a lot of value in the market. And just like, but I, I wouldn't have been able to have that conversation if I hadn't been obsessed for like four months with this topic and attacked it from all these different angles and was able to speak, speak about it and have a strong opinion.

[00:22:58] Um, So there are definitely upsides to this obsessive nature of ours.

[00:23:06] Sam: That makes me think of two things. One, um, Josiah, I remember when we worked together on that workshop and you were like, here is like the correct way to split profits and like the correct way to advertise. And I was like, okay, believe you. Like, you can just trust a five if we've been down the rabbit hole that you can just believe what we say.

[00:23:28] I mean, nobody's a better researcher than a five. So I think that's something other types sometimes don't know. Is they don't have to do it. They can just ask a five who's done it and then trust what we say. that also makes me think about the difference between just like passive research and then you know, action generally, like you're talking Josiah about then doing a whole job of the thing that you research.

[00:23:52] Now you're in the real world doing it. Like there's a big difference between just learning about something and doing it.

[00:23:58] Josiah: Yeah.

[00:23:58] Sam: fives aren't so good at the doing it part.

[00:24:01] Josiah: Yeah, that's really true. And, and in that, that action piece, like that's where it starts to Feel good and productive where, you know, spending a hundred hours researching UFOs might feel good in the moment, but after a while it doesn't, because you can't actually do anything with it. It's like, this doesn't really change my life in any meaningful way.

[00:24:25] At least not anytime soon. And so, um, although I have, I have considered, uh, Falling back on that as a different career path when I was, when I was like, what? What do I want to do? Uh, when I was getting really frustrated with where I was at and, uh, that was one of the things on my possibility list of like, maybe I just go research UFOs for a living.

[00:24:48] That would be fun. 

Using Knowledge to Help Others

[00:27:02] Josiah: kind of along those same lines, Was there a moment when your research or your knowledge ever like made you feel particularly confident, um, or even kind of like save the day?

[00:27:14] Sam: Save the day. Very dramatic. I like it.

[00:27:18] Josiah: Well, I, sometimes I think about like, that is the, romanticized version of, of what we're doing is we're consuming all of this information so that we can be prepared to have that information in that moment when we need it, you know, uh, and, and the, and so we think of it as like our superpower a lot of the times.

[00:27:39] Um, and that's what we're looking for is kind of a moment to use our superpower.

[00:27:45] Sam: I don't know if this answers it, but, um, when something happens, like something bad happens, something negative happens to someone that I love, I will, if relevant, you know, research, whatever's going on like ad nauseum. always find things that they themselves didn't find,

[00:28:05] Josiah: Hmm.

[00:28:05] Sam: if they were like really deeply researching their own condition or diagnosis or whatever, I feel like it's usually health stuff. I have. helped, you know, in practical, in really practical ways. And like I had a friend who had a bad burn and she like didn't understand what was going on with the nerve regrowth and why she's having so much pain and then like I explained the whole theory of it and then she, you know, felt so much better about what was going on.

[00:28:30] Like that kind of stuff happens a lot to me and I think that also speaks to how we handle things like when we handle things that go awry is by researching them basically.

[00:28:42] Cody: goes

[00:28:42] Josiah: Yeah.

[00:28:42] Cody: fears trying to I think that I do the same thing. Basically, I feel like I'm in the habit now of like, every single time I have a question pop up in my head or somebody asks a question that nobody knows the answer to, I'm like, give me five minutes. Like, I'll have a basic question. One paragraph description of whatever this question is and that's come in handy in I've also just had a lot of jobs like a lot of jobs in my life because, you know, working in churches, I always had other jobs to supplement.

[00:29:14] So I've had something like. Forty something jobs probably in my adult life so I have all these like random little tidbits of knowledge that like have come in handy before I have Saved the day when I went to see a movie in the theater and it was It stopped working and nobody knew how to fix it because I used to be a projection manager. And I'm like, did you try resetting this and turning this off and like, no. And so they go do it and it worked and everybody cheered in the, uh, theater and I like to think they were cheering for me, but they just didn't

[00:29:50] Josiah: Cody, Cody, Cody.

[00:29:53] Cody: me up on their show. It's like an 80s teenage movie. yeah, that's, that's, that's my silly version of the story.

[00:30:00] I feel like I have probably a situation that's happened where information came up and I'm like, Oh my God, I know the answer to this. Honestly, I've helped win a night of trivia for that reason. I'm like, I never thought this information would ever come to, you know, I need this information and situation.

[00:30:17] Well, here we are. 

Overcoming Trivia Anxiety

[00:30:18] Cody: So yeah.

[00:30:20] Josiah: See, I don't like trivia because I feel like I feel so inadequate. Um, and it makes me so anxious because I'm like, there's no way I have enough information going into trivia to be able to do well and then like be able to recall it, you know,

The Joy of Group Trivia

[00:30:38] Cody: All right, here's, all right, Mr. Social 5, here's what you actually do that makes you enjoy trivia. I have learned. You go with a group of people that all have different backgrounds and passions. So we have a pretty good group. You would absolutely, uh, you should come with us sometime.

[00:30:55] It's, we go to, you know, a shitty Mexican place and have shitty margaritas for 2. And, uh, we, uh, are a part of this trivia night. And, um, somebody usually knows something. That gets us through to every, almost every time top three, but like, I just say, so this is how you enjoy it. You don't let, you don't, you don't feel like you need to know every answer to every question.

[00:31:19] You just wait for the questions. You definitely do know the answer to, and now you get to step up and I can tell you right now, every single time what I, how I come through. Movies, TV shows, and comic books. Those are the three things, because music is usually something super technical and there's usually two or three people in our group that teach like classical music or band or whatever and so they know those answers, I let them have that. Mathematics, not gonna be my thing. Science, every once in a while. Geography, that's where it makes me feel the most inadequate. I have no idea how Europe is laid out. They're like, what are the five lakes in the world? And I'm like, I'm out. So yeah, you just never know, but I think it's part of, it'd be good practice for you if you're that scared of it to try it, but just do it in a group.

[00:32:06] Don't go by yourself.

[00:32:07] Josiah: Okay, fair enough. Well, maybe you could invite me since you've never invited me until now.

[00:32:12] Cody: Well, you know, yeah, usually you don't come out and do things, so I don't think about it.

[00:32:17] Josiah: Cause you don't invite me.

[00:32:18] Cody: well, I don't also don't know what you'd be interested. Anyway, we're getting sidetracked. We can talk about this afterwards. Sam, you need to live closer. We would make a really good, foundation for a trivia team, the three of us would.

[00:32:32] Sam: That's true. Although it does make me anxious

[00:32:34] Josiah: I think

[00:32:35] Sam: reason Josiah said.

Recognizing Obsessive Behavior

[00:32:37] Josiah: You know, I kind of going back to this obsessive mindset. How do you know when you've gone too far, like, and you need to like pump the brakes, take a step back, uh, and, and take a little breather, come up for air. Uh, what are some signs that, that you notice?

[00:33:03] Sam: When your eyes start to hurt from looking at screens too long.

[00:33:07] Cody: Um, my, my big one is when it starts isolating me from everybody around me.

[00:33:13] Josiah: Yeah.

[00:33:13] Cody: like, I'm obsessing about something and I'm trying to fix something and Madison comes in, like, we haven't talked in hours and I've been home for a while. You know, it's like something like that. I'm like, okay, I should probably take a break. And cause I'll, I'll get super tunnel vision. I don't know if you want to call it like five mixed with Asperger's, but like, I'll get like so hyper focused that I forget to eat a really good example. Is tonight. Cuz I was in here trying to do um, trying to finish this song I want to release next month And so I've been trying to like work on that and I forgot that I ordered food on Uber eats And I had been sitting at the front door for 19 minutes And I was like, Oh shit, I need to, yeah, what am I doing? I need to, I need to go eat. And so, but I'll forget to eat altogether if I'm not careful. And like, especially something I'm really interested in that is applicable, like watching videos of people doing, you know, music engineering stuff. Like I can easily do that till I'm like not sleeping or eating because I just get really obsessed over it. So that's probably like my big, the big picture sign is like, Oh, I haven't eaten. Except once today because I've been doing all this stuff all afternoon or all evening or whatever and Yeah, wrecked my day

[00:34:22] Josiah: Yeah, lack of eating and sleeping is a big one. I think the, the big red flag for me is when it starts to interfere with my human interactions. Where it's like, people are trying to have a conversation with me and I can't even listen because I'm still thinking about all this stuff in my head. Or like,

[00:34:41] Cody: what I mean with like

[00:34:41] Josiah: yeah.

[00:34:43] Yeah, or like at it's worst, when um, when it was really bad. I Would then like be waiting for the conversation to be over so I could get back to, and so, so then the human interactions became like a nuisance or even like a burden. Um,

[00:35:02] Cody: Yeah

[00:35:03] Josiah: that, that was, that was really bad.

[00:35:07] Sam: I agree with the isolation thing. I feel like it's tricky because sometimes I wouldn't notice because I would be doing and, you know, and for me it was my work that I was also needed to do, but I would get so into it and then when I would be you know, not working on it. I would be so irritable and like mean and snap at people because anything they were doing to try to get me to like be a human and with a body in the world, I was mad at them I, like, I

[00:35:37] Josiah: Yeah.

[00:35:37] Sam: be in my head

[00:35:39] Cody: Yeah,

[00:35:40] Sam: subtle.

[00:35:40] Like, I didn't realize it was happening until people were like, why are you so mean right now? I was like, oh,

[00:35:45] Cody: hmm

[00:35:45] Sam: like researching too hard basically.

[00:35:49] Cody: Yeah, the research fatigue. It definitely it's the it's similar to like That's a similar feeling to, um, when you are just feeling so drained from being around people too long and you get that same irritability. Um, I've definitely felt that and like, and couple that with like what you said, Josiah, about it.

[00:36:07] It's all you could think about. So then when you are talking to other people, not only are you already irritated or irritable, you know, but also you're still thinking about the thing that you're obsessed about. So it's like, whatever it is you've been researching. Yeah, it's definitely. Yeah. Definitely derailing.

Breaking the Obsession Cycle

[00:36:25] Josiah: So then when you notice these signs, like how do you start to pull yourself out?

[00:36:31] Cody: Turn off the screen.

[00:36:34] Sam: Not very effectively to be honest.

[00:36:36] Cody: Yeah.

[00:36:37] Sam: It's very hard to get out of the rabbit hole. think physicality is the best way. Like we'll go for a walk, workout, but not listen to podcasts at the

[00:36:49] Josiah: Right.

[00:36:50] Sam: which is what we do. We're like, okay, well, if I'm going to walk, I'll at least like give my brain something, but actually just be in your body.

[00:36:57] Anything that gets you in your body, yoga, whatever that stuff really helps. But it's hard to motivate because it just feels so good in the research hole.

[00:37:06] Cody: Maybe

[00:37:07] Josiah: Yeah.

[00:37:07] Cody: the portfolio, you know? Like, spread out your interests. So like, I feel like, in terms of like, Yes, I agree to some degree. It's like, you don't want to, um, You know, have, you don't want to be listening to podcasts about maybe what you're researching. But I think there's some benefit to like it maybe go for a run and listen to a podcast about something that doesn't matter or something else that's not related related to that just to get your mind off of something else. Because like sometimes if I just, it's like take out take out that cartridge of information and put a new one in just to like, give it give you know, give yourself a palate cleanser. It's you come back to it a little bit more sober minded when you're researching a very intense topic or something I feel like Mm

[00:37:51] Josiah: Yeah. I, I, and, and the other thing that. Comes up for me too is especially when you're researching stuff like conspiracy theories You can you can start to get really cynical And that's that's another red flag for me. It's like and and I've gotten cynical and also really schizo and and paranoid and and so I think that coming back into um Like my, my anchor relationships, the people who are kind of those pillars in my life.

[00:38:28] Um, and in forcing myself to engage, uh, I like what Sam, what you're talking about, the physicality is so true. And also I hate that that's the answer because that's the last thing I want to do. Um, and, and thankfully because I have three rambunctious boys, they're pretty good about like, not listening to my boundaries and just forcing me into wrestling and stuff like that, you know, and to the point where like, I, I will usually eventually give in.

[00:38:58] Um, and then I'm always glad that I do afterwards because that getting into that spirit of like play and, um, and, you know, wrestling and, and goofing off like that. That helps me disengage my brain, um, and get out of research mode and be more present in the moment for sure.

The Enneagram Obsession

[00:39:19] Sam: So what's interesting is my main informational obsession of my life is the Enneagram.

[00:39:26] Cody: Yeah?

[00:39:28] Sam: You know, like, it's like Professionally, personally, everything. It's the whole reason I pursued a degree and studied it is because it was already my research obsession. So I get like an excuse to continue the obsession all the time, because it's also like what pays my bills and it's what I'm supposed to be doing. But what's weird is, like just, I wanna talk about how this ties in socially because I'll go to, you know, a, or whatever and I have nothing to say. Like, I don't feel like talking. People ask me stuff and I'm like, yeah, whatever. And then they're like, oh, you're into that Enneagram thing, right?

[00:40:06] Like, what's that about? And then I'm off a mile a minute talking for like a, an hour straight.

[00:40:13] Cody: Sure.

[00:40:13] Sam: like once in a while checking their face to make sure they're still listening. So, like, what, how do you guys react when someone asks you about the thing that you happen to be, like, obsessively researching at that time?

Navigating Social Interactions

[00:40:25] Josiah: Oh, it's so hard.

[00:40:27] Cody: I try really hard not to just be like a damn that just broke. The problem though for me is that I don't pick up the cues of when people are not interested anymore. So I think for me it's like trying to constantly be mindful of checking in with body language around me and be like, Hey, what's up? Are they even facing me anymore?

[00:40:50] Like, are we still into this conversation? Because, you know, like, people, you know, you're a psychologist. People start to, like, move their body away from you when they're not interested. They can't help it, and their shoulders move. And so, um, and especially, like, if they're ready to leave, then they just start facing towards the door without, you know, without, you know, unconsciously doing it.

[00:41:08] And so I think that, um, That's definitely part of it for me, but like I don't know it's I feel like it's harder for me than most people I know to like shut the hell up after somebody opens that know that damn of information

[00:41:22] Josiah: It's, it's really hard and I thankfully I've gotten better at it over time, but it's taken a lot of practice. And to Cody's point, like the social cues was not something that came naturally to me and I had to practice and learn how to pick up on them and then what to do about it. And then also to not, um, Yeah, well, shut up.

[00:41:44] Um, yeah, so to also not take it personally when they do lose interest. Um, I think that's another big piece of it because it, in the past it has been an excuse to then disengage again. Um, and then now I try to catch myself when I do that, you know, and, and. Then try to find something else to talk about that they're interested in, um, that I am also interested in.

[00:42:11] And, uh, it doesn't always work if there is. Yeah. If there.

[00:42:16] Sam: people don't have interesting things that they want to talk about.

[00:42:20] Josiah: Yeah, well, I, yeah, to us, then what I do is I, so, you know, I have these frameworks that I'm interested in, like the Enneagram. Um, and, and then I do my best to ask them about something that they're passionate about and, and then try to figure out like how that fits into the framework and, and form sort of that profile of them.

[00:42:44] Right. It's like I'm.

[00:42:44] Sam: fun for yourself.

[00:42:45] Josiah: make it fun for myself internally. Uh, if I can't, if I can't do it in the conversation itself. Yeah,

[00:42:52] Cody: Yeah, I agree that In a way that

[00:42:57] Sam: playthings in, like,

[00:42:59] Josiah: of course.

[00:43:00] Sam: of life. Like, they're not people. They're just like, how do they fit in my framework? I've never thought about trying that and now I will.

[00:43:08] Josiah: As long as, as long as you're not manipulating them. Yeah.

[00:43:11] Cody: it can't be harmful to them because I've also done Manipulation just for fun because I'm bored to just see if I can get people to fight with each other and all that kind Of stuff. So I think that there's no I mean, I haven't done that in many years I was a different person in my early 20s, but I I think that I do the exact same.

[00:43:29] It's like people watching, but you're doing it and it's such a different way, like you're, you're just, you know, poking and prodding to see how people answer questions and like what it is they're interested in. And yeah, I agree with you. I do the same thing with the Enneagram. Like the Enneagram is literally like my map of categorization when I'm around people to be like, okay, they're kind of starting to fit into this box.

[00:43:46] Let me see, see how this goes. If I go this direction with it, you know, um, yeah.

[00:43:50] Sam: is brilliant. I've never thought about doing this because I do typing like for a living. I'm, you know, I type people help them figure out their type and I'm pretty good at it I've never thought about just using conversation to try to type people in my life, regular people I encounter for fun when I run out of things to say to them.

[00:44:10] Josiah: So yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:16] Cody: your parents how what kind of siblings did you have you know You just like asking a little questions and it's like wow They're so interested in me and we're really we're just mapping out their entire personality in our heads

[00:44:26] Josiah: Yeah. And I've, I've done, research around small talk as well to try to get better at small talk. Um, and then also, you know, having, having done, having done podcasting, there's an art to how to ask questions and not ask questions and active listening. And so there's, and all of that. Again, are things that don't come naturally.

[00:44:49] So it's something that I have to practice, but having a medium like this has been really helpful because it gives us an opportunity to practice. And then in my job too, because it's a very visible role and I'm usually giving presentations to the company and like facilitating just like hard discussions and things like that.

[00:45:09] Um, it, but, but that is something that I had to build up to over many, many years because before it was, I had no idea how to interact with people, especially because I was homeschooled for half of my school life and it was very socially awkward. Like it was something I had to play catch up on. Um, but I was motivated to do it I think partially because I'm a social dominant five and, and I, it was a puzzle that I wanted to figure out.

[00:45:43] Um, but it. Has been very painful to get to where I am with it.

[00:45:49] Cody: That's the difference between me and you too. We have the same story in terms of homeschooling It's just reversed because you did it from the beginning to what middle school right? And

[00:45:57] Josiah: Seventh grade. Yeah.

[00:45:59] Cody: grade. And so I was fourth grade until I graduated. And so, um, but the difference is your social side kicked in and wanted to go back to school.

[00:46:09] And I was like, this is awesome. I get to choose who I'm around all the time. This is amazing. I can just not be friends with somebody and never have to see them again. You know, it was very empowering as a teenager that liked to be by myself.

[00:46:23] Sam: This is possibly an adjacent topic, but, um, I use a sexual instinct to navigate these things rather than learn how to have a conversation about topics that people really want to know about. Like, I just use chemistry or, like, intrigue or mysteriousness to kind of, like, capture people's attention and, like, You know get them energetically interested and then I'll just I don't have to say anything really it's like they're interested anyway that's something like sexual fives do because we don't know what the fuck we're doing socially But it's like oh, we're like captivating though.

[00:47:00] Like don't you want to talk to me? but now i'm just gonna let you talk and i've done that for my whole life and it's just my 30s occurring to me that maybe I could learn actually how to interact socially just on its own

[00:47:15] Cody: Yeah, I think it's weird because we, I feel like in your thirties, it's like rediscovering what the authenticity looks like and realizing that in those moments you're, you're not being authentic with yourself or them by like just navigating the conversation that way. Cause I feel like that's me. Like I, I still hate small talk.

[00:47:33] I have no desire to be better at small talk. I don't want it in my life, but it's, yeah, I can like, that's why I'm like, good for you. Just say, I'm really happy for you.

[00:47:41] Josiah: We're going to have to do a small talk episode now.

[00:47:43] Cody: know. Yeah. It's a very admirable of you, such a saint. Um, but, uh,

[00:47:48] Josiah: Yeah, I'm definitely a saint.

[00:47:52] Cody: Um, but, uh, yeah, I don't know. I just think that, um, I I just start to crave real connection with people, so then it, it makes it, it makes, it makes it worthwhile to try to learn how to do those things than it did before where it was like, you know, maybe it was just about me and I just didn't, didn't wanna admit that.

[00:48:11]

Balancing Research and Action

[00:50:31] Josiah: I guess one more thing I'm curious about is how do you know when it's time to stop researching something? Like how do you get to the point where you feel like you have enough information?

[00:50:47] Sam: I do have thoughts on that. So Um, when I first was seeing clients, which was about five years ago, would come to every session with like a full page of handwritten notes on whatever they were going through and how it related to my research and how it related to the Enneagram and how it related to like various psychological theories. I intended every time to get through the whole page. And, um, A. It was way too much. B, it was not that helpful to people. And what happened is, like, I had another kid, and I just ended up not having time to do that. And I realized that what people really needed was for me to hold space for them,

[00:51:33] Josiah: Um,

[00:51:34] Sam: that required basically no information. And they needed information, I had enough, and it would just be there. And then what's interesting is recently my youngest is, um, turning one and I'm having a little more space and I started doing the notes thing again. Like it's like a compulsion. I started bringing, you know, like pre researching and bringing notes.

[00:51:57] And then the sessions that I do that for, they're not going that well. It's like people don't actually want to be bombarded with facts. They want love, like they want you to care for them. So for me, it's been like a really Real and real time learning process in my work with people with coaching Of I actually did need to stop researching I literally researched, you know for a living the topic that I was Helping them with and I basically just needed to stop and just be there for them and it it was a lot of in the moment of that being better that being a better way to do it.

[00:52:38] Cody: Yeah, I think that's, that, that makes, that makes sense. I, um, I feel like it's, it is, I think it's almost like an addiction. It's like an addictive feeling to, like, how much do we love learning about something and then putting it on paper? Altogether. Concentrated with bullet points and all of the things, right?

[00:52:58] Like, I,

[00:52:59] Sam: best

[00:52:59] Cody: I love doing that. Um, for no reason at all. I have a collection of all kinds of information filed away whenever I learn something, how we start a new note, anything that I'm doing, whether it's useful or not useful, just for my own self, you know, it's like, if I'm trying to form an opinion on a topic or something, you know, or like, You know, if it's, uh, an idealism of some, you know, something, something that like, that's, is a concept that I want to try to create a framework around that I have an opinion. I'll write out all of that information or type it all out and then, um, hone it in until I have the opinion that I want or not that I want, but that I feel like it's an adequate opinion on something. And so, um, because it also helps me remember that information. So I get that completely. Um, but I also get how like. often are too much for other people when it comes to information. Um, I, I think of, um, when it's time to stop. A good example is whenever I'm going to buy something.

[00:54:02] Josiah: yeah.

[00:54:03] Cody: you know, I

[00:54:04] Josiah: I love, I love researching things. Like when I'm trying to, you know, make a decision around something that I need to buy, especially if it's technology, like, Yep.

[00:54:19] Cody: without, I couldn't make a decision because I would research and research and I would think, okay, I think I have a good idea. And then I'd find some piece of information or review on a product or something like, oh, yeah.

[00:54:28] Now, I mean, I'm questioning the whole thing. It started, let's start from scratch. Um, and I used to do that all the time and I mean, I still do it all the time, but I think there's a certain point where I just have to, something that I do now that I did not do even just months ago, is that there's a point where I feel like I have a good idea of the top two products.

[00:54:46] Like we're going to talk about something, I buy top two products that, um, That I'm looking at. Okay, these have rose above the rest in my research for days or whatever, right? And so I have these two things and then there's a certain point where I just have to go, okay, here's pros and cons of this one.

[00:55:00] Here's the pros and cons list on this one. This is the good and the bad reviews. What does my gut say like I just got to go with it, you know Because most things have a 30 day return and I tell myself about that too Because it's easy for me to forget because you don't want to go through that whole process But I think I just do it.

[00:55:17] Yeah, it's a gut feeling It's like I've learned to trust my gut in a way that I always Found to be invalid before I always thought that was not true Trust trusting information. You don't want to trust your gut because that's just feelings and emotions and those things are bad And you want to talk about ways that the podcast has helped me in my life Emotions are not bad, right? I learned that from this podcast

[00:55:45] Josiah: Uh, yeah, I, I I'm with you there learning to, to trust my instincts. My intuition is a big part of that. And also, recognizing when the research goes from being helpful to being an excuse to not take action or to, to make a decision like that procrastination phase. Um, cause it's, that's one of the, that's one of the main ways that I will procrastinate is like researching, getting more information.

[00:56:13] Um, and, and I think that, It doesn't take much for us to start to become aware of when that happens. It's a lot harder to develop the habit of stopping that before it gets out of control, but at least starting with like being aware of this is no longer serving me and I have enough information to at least take the next couple of steps.

[00:56:38] And then if I need to come back and do more research at that point, I can, but then it's just making it's, it's, it's. figuring out what, what kind of my, my cutoff point is to take the next action, like the next step. So a lot of times when I'm, when I'm researching something to where I need to actually use information to do something that productive, you know, researching that we talked about.

[00:57:02] Um, I start with what my objectives are, um, what it is I'm actually trying to get out of that, uh, out of the research and what I'm going to need to do. And then, um, as I'm doing the research, I am, I'm going back to that list and saying, okay, okay. What, what, what, what are those steps and do I have enough information to take the next one?

[00:57:22] And then usually that answer is yes. And then I can go ahead and take it.

[00:57:28] Cody: You know, actually another thing that I do now that I didn't do before was I You I kind of ask the questions of why I'm looking up the thing to begin with. Um, and I type it out sometimes. So you're talking about like collection, collecting information, right? For us to be able to have for whatever reason, sometimes it's helpful in just researching things.

[00:57:47] If it's a, like I said, if using an example of a product, like why do I want that thing? What am I going to use it for? What are all of the re you know, the list of reasons why I need this thing. And that helps me. Go, okay, check box, check box, check box. I'm done researching. This thing covers all the things, you know?

[00:58:03] And so I think, and that's the case with most topics. I feel like it's like, if I know why I'm looking it up and I answer that question, that primary question, I try to stop.

[00:58:13] Sam: thematically, we were all talking about things other than the head, basically. I was talking about being heart centered, and then, Cody, you mentioned gut, and Josiah mentioned intuition. Basically, like, we need to remember that there's other ways of making decisions outside of our mind, just researching and learning facts.

[00:58:34] Cody: Yeah.

[00:58:35] Josiah: Absolutely. Couldn't set it better myself. 

Concluding Thoughts

[00:58:37] Josiah: I think that's a good place to stop.

[00:58:39] Cody: Cool.

[00:58:40] Josiah: All right.

[00:58:41] Cody: See you next time.

[00:58:42] Josiah: Until next time.

[00:58:44] Sam: Bye.

[00:58:44] ​