Intellect vs. Intelligence: Do we rely too much on our analytical mind as an Enneagram 5?

[00:00:30] Josiah: so Cody,

[00:00:33] Cody: Yep.

[00:00:36] Josiah: what would you say if I told you. I was a genius.

[00:00:48] Cody: I don't know if I care.

[00:00:57] Josiah: Oh, that was good. I like that one.

[00:00:59] Cody: Okay.

[00:01:02] Josiah: Oh man.

[00:01:03] Cody: okay, good for you.

[00:01:41] Josiah: So we're talking about intellect and intelligence and maybe the difference between the two.

[00:01:50] Cody: Okay.

[00:01:51] Josiah: I don't usually talk about this, but I'm just going to say it and see what happens. I. I have an IQ in the one thirties. 

[00:02:03] Cody: Okay. 

[00:02:03] Josiah: Okay. Last time I tested, which was a while ago like when I was in high school, I think, and I have every single cognitive test I've ever taken.

[00:02:13] I've been somewhere in the nineties in the 90th percentile. Mm-hmm. On the, the Wonder Lick, have you ever heard of that test? Mm-hmm. I think it started in the NFL. Okay. But then they started using it like outside of, outside of that, huh. And place. Yeah. I, I don't know why but yeah, I, I got like last time I took that, I think I got like a 42 or 43 out 50, which is also like way up on the end of the bell curve.

[00:02:42] every test I've ever taken. Also that it's said that I could basically have any job that I want, and so I am kind of a borderline genius.

[00:02:55] Cody: Where is this going?

[00:02:57] Josiah: And also I am an idiot.

[00:03:05] Cody: Okay.

[00:03:09] Josiah: And the, the reason for that, if any success I've had in my life has mostly been in spite of my intellect and not because of it. Yeah. And so that's what I wanted to talk about because I think as a five, and we can get into def definitions and all of that but I think as a five we lean heavily on our intellect

[00:03:33] Cody: Hmm.

[00:03:34] Josiah: often.

[00:03:36] At the cost of our intelligence.

[00:03:38] Cody: is this like a street smarts versus book

[00:03:40] Josiah: smarts kind of conversation. No. So I, we, we talked about this a little bit in a live, I think like a month or two ago. Okay. it's, it's basically we equate off, we often equate intellect with intelligence, but intellect is just a form of intelligence.

[00:03:55] And because of that, we miss out on all of the other. Types of intelligence. And, and so for example, the way I think about intellect is, or intelligence as a whole, intelligence is a, is a toolkit, right? And an intellect is one tool in that toolkit. And so it's your ability to pull things apart and analyze and kind of piece things together.

[00:04:18] But I think of it more like a scalpel where you're dissecting things to like, understand it. That can be really useful for certain things, but you would never use a scalpel to stitch up a wound, And we tend to, or at least I have most of my life, tended to over rely on my intellect, like my, an analytical abilities.

[00:04:43] And because of that, my, the other types of intelligence that I would normally have access to, were. Really underdeveloped and so, social intelligence, body intelligence, emotional intelligence, we've talked about that on a, a previous episode. so I'll give you an illustration of this.

[00:05:02] Cody: Okay.

[00:05:02] Josiah: Do you know what my favorite movie of all time growing up was?

[00:05:06] Cody: I feel like I do, or I should know this, but I can't think of it off the top of my head, so go ahead.

[00:05:11] Josiah: The Princess Bride. I have seen that movie at least a hundred times. Yes. Interesting. I don't know why I, I just remember going up to visit my family in West Virginia and there were a couple of summers in a row where I stayed most of the summer up there and my aunt had. The Princess Bride on VHS tape, and she had, and it was, I think it was like one of two movies I was allowed to watch that she had.

[00:05:37] Sure. And so I just, it just played nonstop and I, I just love that movie so much. And there was always this one scene that stuck with me where it's the Battle of Wits

[00:05:49] Cody: Okay.

[00:05:50] Josiah: and it's Wesley. Vini and they're on top of this hill and you know, Vini has buttercup like a knife to her throat and they basically hit a dead end.

[00:06:02] And so Wesley proposes that they have a battle of wits where there are two wine glasses and he has some IOC canine powder, which is deadly, but odorless and tasteless. And he turns and puts the io IOC canine powder in the wine and then turns back around and, and it's like, okay, now you choose which cup.

[00:06:22] Each of us drinks and then we drink and we see who wins the battle of wits. I always think about this because there's one point where. You know, Vini is going through this whole monologue talking about, you know, I can clearly not choose the glass in front of me. And so it's just this whole back and forth and it's just dissecting everything and pulling it apart and, and trying to show off his ability to do that.

[00:06:44] And Wesley says truly you have a dazzling intellect. And, and so he goes through this whole process and then finally. He gets Wesley to turn and Wesley knows what's going on the whole time, but he gets Wesley to turn and then he switch, switches the goblets Right. And then turns back around and then they drink.

[00:07:02] And so he thinks he's tricked him. And so Vini starts laughing, that obnoxious laugh and then just falls over dead.

[00:07:09] Cody: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:11] Josiah: Right? And that's because Wesley had spent years. Building up his tolerance to IOC canine powder. 

[00:07:19] Cody: mm. 

[00:07:19] Josiah: And so he had this ability in his body that one Fini never saw coming, but he, he, he couldn't, he couldn't match that with his intellect because it was just a different type of, you know, we'll say body intelligence, right?

[00:07:35] The ability to, to withstand this, this poison. And that's always sort of stuck in my head as this. Great illustration of the difference between intellect and intelligence, where Sini was always relying on this ability to analyze everything and, and pull it apart and try to figure out what was going on versus, you know, Wesley had all the different types of intelligence because he was very athletic and he was a great swordsman and he.

[00:08:02] He had the street smarts from being a pirate and, and all of that, but he also had a really sharp intellect. Mm-hmm. And, and so when I think about the two, I always think about, I want to be more like Wesley. Yeah. And not Sini. Right. But most of my life I was sini,

[00:08:21] Cody: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:08:23] Josiah: so, so you kind of get what I'm saying here, like the difference between the two.

[00:08:26] Cody: well, intelligence is more. All encompassing. Holistic. Yeah, holistic. It's more emotion and it's, it encompasses everything of a whole being rather than intellect being like the analytical part of your brain that dissects and takes things apart.

[00:08:40] That makes sense. I think that that's something that I have struggled with being all intellect and a lot. I mean, if intelligence is learning about your emotions and your body and more. Holistically thinking of yourself, then I didn't, I didn't learn, I did not become intelligent until maybe five years ago. I'm still a baby in intelligence, but

[00:09:07] Josiah: me too,

[00:09:07] Cody: intellect very sharply honed, you know? But yeah, that's that's definitely a struggle for me. I mean, even still is. Yeah. That's, that's I, I see what you're saying though.

[00:09:17] Josiah: yeah. So I'm curious from you as a five growing up, what did over relying on intellect look like for you?

[00:12:41] Cody: Childhood was, it was tough for me. And also too, my brother was also on the autism spectrum, so I, and my parents are probably on the spectrum 'cause it's genetic and so, so I, I did have a lot of examples for, you know, my mom. My mom was on the emotional side. She was a lot more.

[00:12:58] On that side, but because me and my dad and my brother, none of us were like that, it was almost like it was a, a bad thing. Like the emotional side was disregarded and considered lesser than. And so I feel like, and obviously not intentionally, but that's just how it happened. And so growing up for me was even more difficult.

[00:13:19] My five ness got buried and it wasn't even what was causing it, you know what I mean? It was just like, it was so circum or so environmental situational in that way. Socially for me that like, I, I think I, I, it, it. Poured me even more into that. And in fact, growing up, I didn't even think I was the analytical one because my, my brother and my dad were at like 10 times the level of

[00:13:40] Josiah: know what I mean? Ah,

[00:13:41] Cody: the amount of information my brother could process and, and analyze and then regurgitate.

[00:13:47] And then he was, he got, by the time nine or 10 years old, rolled around. He was ahead of my dad, so like. He ran those conversations a lot of the time. So I felt like the dumb one 'cause I couldn't keep up with them and I didn't understand the conversations they were gonna have. And it was always math and science and it was my least

[00:14:02] Josiah: like the least

[00:14:03] Cody: favorite, you know, topics.

[00:14:05] And so I think that had a lot to do with my, not, not inability, but my the lack of desire to even want to try to get outside of that comfort zone of, of. Overanalyzing all the time and, and relying on that to get through situations.

[00:14:22] Josiah: Hmm. How did that show up for you creatively?

[00:14:27] Cody: I think it was probably a hindrance more than anything for the first many years of my writing. Um, Because I started playing guitar when I was nine or 10. I think it was 10. And and so it, I was just emulating my favorite artists for however many, for, you know. The first few years that I learned and was trying to figure out like what songwriting looked like, I was also really deep into religion.

[00:14:50] So it was great. It was easy to plagiarize the Bible as all Christian artists do. And so, you know, it was like I didn't have to have my own lyrics necessarily. So that got me started on like. How to piece words together. So again, it was analytical. It wasn't, I think it hindered creativity because I don't feel like I've written my favorite songs and my, what I'm most proud of creatively until the last five years.

[00:15:14] Josiah: wasn't, yeah.

[00:15:14] Cody: So I, and, and I, and it's, and it so directly influences my creative side and so, or so directly I would say even like, is. Is the heart and like direction of my creative side. It's more, it is what it is Now. They've, they've melded together and so much so that I look back and think, man, I wish I could have learned this so much earlier, because how much more in enrich enrichened, no, that's not a word.

[00:15:41] How much,

[00:15:42] Josiah: we'll go with it. How enriching you my life

[00:15:44] Cody: would've been had I been able to tap into that side and actually feel my emotions rather than, just bury them and. Pretend they don't exist as long as possible.

[00:15:54] Josiah: Yeah, and also, and also like body intelligence, what is that called? Kinesthetic intelligence, I think is what it's called.

[00:16:01] Cody: called? Yeah, 

[00:16:02] sounds 

[00:16:02] right.

[00:16:02] Josiah: Yeah, so for me it was really frustrating growing up that I did not understand emotions. I couldn't pull them apart. I couldn't analyze them. Like I, I had no idea what was going on. I would just feel things and then not know what to do with that and get flooded and overwhelmed. And so then I would just try to avoid feeling things.

[00:16:24] But of course that doesn't work.

[00:16:25] Cody: Probably and it makes you if, if it was anything like my experience, I would say it makes you feel like you're always on the outside of everything and everybody

[00:16:33] Josiah: Yeah.

[00:16:33] Cody: Because if you're not processing your own feelings, you're also not able to process other people's feelings. Yeah. And, and me, and you know, I never wanted to, but I, I know that because you watched the oc you probably really

[00:16:43] Josiah: did

[00:16:43] Cody: want to, you wanted to have that re, you know, that type of experience with other people where they're just all in their emotions.

[00:16:50] But I, I, uh, well, and I just think about like all of the times in, in episodes past where you've talked about like your middle school and high school years, and like how much you wanted to be able to fit in and have like that classic TV. Sitcom type vibe at a high school. I never, I don't think we've ever, I don't think I've ever said this in any of our past conversations, but I wasn't like that.

[00:17:10] I didn't want that. Right. To some degree I did. I wanted like the, some of the social aspect, like the friendships always appealed to me. Maybe 'cause those were the hardest for me to cultivate and maintain. But, that the, the relationship side was never really what I cared about. Like I maybe felt like I, or I thought I did, but like, looking back, it never really was the most appealing part of it for me.

[00:17:30] So yeah.

[00:17:31] Josiah: Yeah, I I definitely over romanticized all of that. Right. and then, and, and I spent so much energy and processing power trying to analyze and strategize how to make. That happened. Like where the missing key, right? Yeah. Where am I gonna find my future wife, and how do I have, like, what do I need to do to, to get in into that place?

[00:17:54] And

[00:17:55] Cody: you were pretty far deep in religion at that point too, so you're like, well, how do I hear God in just

[00:17:59] Josiah: the right way. Yep. Yep. we also talked about. Intuition recently. Mm-hmm. And that's another form of intelligence that I was missing. Yes. I, I think that there were times where I accessed it, but I was always kind of ashamed that I accessed it.

[00:18:15] Cody: think

[00:18:15] Josiah: Hmm. and I think that that part of that comes from also having some sort of body awareness And I did not have much body awareness. I was very physically awkward and just always, I always fell out of place like in my body and just wanted to live in my head all the time because of that. and so there, like my friends were usually much more athletic than I was, and they were able to pick up.

[00:18:44] Like different sports more quickly. Yeah. And even things like playing the guitar because there's, you know, coordination involved in that and it requires that sort of mind body connection and that body awareness in order to attain that muscle memory. And I struggled with all of that and It was really challenging for me, and it took me a long time to realize that I was not building those muscles, so to

[00:19:12] Cody: Mm

[00:19:13] Josiah: Really, I, I don't think I really started to recognize that until Amy and I got together, like in my twenties because I was one, that was my first relationship. So,

[00:19:22] Cody: mm

[00:19:23] Josiah: which is crazy.

[00:19:23] Yeah, I know. Like

[00:19:24] Cody: wheel. So we don't say that enough.

[00:19:26] Josiah: That was your first relationship

[00:19:28] Cody: ever.

[00:19:29] Josiah: Yeah. It's

[00:19:29] Cody: wild to

[00:19:30] Josiah: think about. Yeah.

[00:19:31] Cody: And I was there for it. If you don't include me, it was your first relationship ever. No.

[00:19:35] Josiah: Well. We have a, a different kind of special relationship. Cody?

[00:19:39] Cody: That's true. I'd like to, but I was here

[00:19:42] Josiah: to.

[00:19:43] Cody: That's, that was really all I was saying.

[00:19:44] Josiah: Okay, sure. Um, Yeah, so, you know, it's funny actually the other day, so I, I've started personal training and been working with a personal trainer for a few weeks now, which has been awesome.

[00:19:58] I actually think it'll be fun at some point. Once I've made some good progress to sit down and interview my personal trainer around like, what, what it's like to train a five and, oh yeah, yeah, it could be fun. But he told me last week, that I have great body awareness.

[00:20:15] Cody: oh,

[00:20:16] Josiah: And I was like, what? How? And I think that, for me, that's just a really great signal of the progress that I've made because I know that I definitely did not have that. Right. You know, until somewhat recently

[00:20:33] Cody: And certainly not unconsciously, right?

[00:20:35] Josiah: Yeah. For real. Well, no, I mean, I am going in and I am, consciously making an effort.

[00:20:41] Cody: You're doing the work, but to be to the level where it happens unconsciously?

[00:20:46] Josiah: I, or did you? No, I into it. I mean, it's happening consciously is what it is. I think. Yeah. I don't, I don't know how much unconsciously it's there. Okay. But I am going in and I am, you know, I'm focusing a big, so a big part of this that's been a win for me is that. He, I, I just go in, I don't really have to think about anything other than my body, right?

[00:21:09] And, and what I'm feeling in my body because he keeps track of the count. He knows which exercises I'm doing and he's like directing me to go from one to the next. And it even something as simple as not having to count when I'm doing reps. Helps me so much. Yeah. Because when I'm counting I'm like, you know, I'm in my head.

[00:21:26] But when I don't have to worry about that, I'm, I'm focusing on my form, but I'm also focusing on the actual sensations and feelings of my body as I'm doing the exercise. And so I'm like bringing my awareness to the muscle or muscle group that I'm supposed to be, you know, focusing on with, with the particular exercise.

[00:21:46] And I've gotten fairly good at noticing when I'm not doing it right. And, we had me do these like shoulder raise things with dumbbells. And I noticed that it was kind of like tweaking my elbow a little bit and I'm like, I know this is not what it's supposed to do.

[00:22:04] And he's like, oh, just move your shoulder, like. I had, he had me like rotate it like 10 degrees. It was just this little tiny movement. Yeah. And then all of a sudden the exercise, not only was it hitting the right muscle group, but it was like twice as hard. Yeah. And I'm like, oh my God. Yeah. So it's cool that one, I have someone who can, you know, who knows that, who can help me figure that out, like in real time.

[00:22:26] Right. But also that I'm able to focus enough on my body and get into my body enough where I can notice that. 'cause he wouldn't, you know. It's such a subtle difference that he might not even notice it, you know, looking from the outside. But if I am focused and noticing and bringing my awareness, then I can, I know when it's, when it's, when it's going the right way or the wrong way, and then I can at least say, Hey look, I'm not feeling it there.

[00:22:50] I'm feeling it here. And he can be like, oh, well then do this. And then I do that one little thing. I'm like, oh my God. You know? And, and for me that's huge because. It's taken me a long time to get to the point where I could do that, and also I'm enjoying it, which is a, which is a huge win too,

[00:23:06] Cody: definitely it's partially related. It's within the conversation of going to the gym. One of the things for me as, yeah, I would say, I mean. This, I don't know if this is a five thing or if it's just that I'm lazy, but I get so easily overwhelmed wanting to go to the gym to try new exercises and expand on exercises because I don't have to keep, like, looking them up and making sure I'm doing the format or like remembering what the hell this, this weirdly called, you know, workout is, and that the, it's the informational part that makes me procrastinate.

[00:23:37] And not want to do it or like wanna stay in my comfort zone. Of, of, because that I don't like, here's the thing, I don't like being told what to do at all

[00:23:45] Josiah: by anyone,

[00:23:46] Cody: Every time I do feel like somebody is telling me what to do, and I didn't ask for it, it was unsolicited, like bosses at jobs, for example. Or maybe it's scarring from past, like religious situations with pastors.

[00:23:58] Josiah: I'm with you. Yeah. Of using that.

[00:23:58] Cody: that. But like, you know, I, there's been so many I've had the hardest time with, like, I've tried to go to, like, I've tried to go to those, guided like classes, like Orange Theory and stuff before especially. 'cause Madison's really into it for a while. And so I would, I would go with her sometimes, or, well, they'd have like the free classes or whatever, and I'd hate every second of it because of this guy yelling in my ear, telling me what to do.

[00:24:19] And I'm like, let me, I wanna just work out. I don't even wanna do this anymore. And there's something about it, it just shuts my brain off. But on the flip side of it. If it was like, for you, it's like it's a very much a solicited situation. You're paying them, you want them to be there, which I, it would be with Orange Theory too, but like, I just don't like them.

[00:24:35] I think it's also overstimulating those kinds of situations for,

[00:24:39] Josiah: especially for me, one of the, one of the things that I love about the gym that I'm going to is at maximum there are only ever two other clients there. And oftentimes it's just me and my trainer and it's really, really nice. Yeah.

[00:24:53] Cody: That's really, really nice.

[00:24:54] Josiah: And they're really smart about how they go about doing it too.

[00:24:57] So I appreciate how he gives me the right level of information because I'm with you. Like when we, you know, when you and I were working out this summer before you moved it was going really well because we were just kinda showing up and doing just like a handful of exercises that we knew that we were easy and just trying

[00:25:11] Cody: the habit of

[00:25:12] Josiah: just get in the habit and with that consistency and then I spent like, I don't know, it was like 50 bucks or 80 bucks or something.

[00:25:19] For a, it was called, it was like a minimalist workout thing. And I'm like, this is gonna be awesome, you know? 'cause we're gonna maximize our efficiency of only 'cause we're only going twice a week, you know, and printed it all out. And even went through the trouble of like, working with chat GPT to create a table that gave me descriptions of all the moves.

[00:25:39] 'cause I couldn't remember. 'cause the names were, you know, weird, stupid. Yeah. And yeah,

[00:25:43] Cody: As they always

[00:25:44] Josiah: and I never once used it.

[00:25:46] Cody: no. Yeah.

[00:25:48] Josiah: And, and then actually the longer it went. After I printed it out, the less I wanted to go to the gym because I'm like, oh, I should take that with me. Oh, but I don't wanna do that.

[00:25:55] Oh, maybe I shouldn't go to the gym then. And it was just like, it was so weird. 'cause I was just, I was overthinking then at that point. And oh,

[00:26:02] Cody: Oh, the things that we ruin when we start overthinking things, like

[00:26:06] Josiah: I ruined

[00:26:06] Cody: so many things. Even now I'm just like, I have to, it's so hard to be accountable to myself to call myself out on that when I know it's happening and I know I'm spiraling and I'm overthinking it and just be like, you know what?

[00:26:17] No. Make a decision. We're doing this thing. You know, Yeah. I think over overthinking plays a huge part in even. Creating a, a bigger chasm between intelligence and intellect for me, or, and wanting to stay on that intellect island and just live there forever, because, ugh, I start thinking about all the steps to get off the island. Yes. You know,

[00:26:37] Josiah: and that's the thing. If you think about it, when we were going, just the two of us, and we didn't really have a plan. What we were doing was we were sort of sensing what our body needed or wanted kind of in In that moment and we were actually building up more body intelligence mm-hmm.

[00:26:55] And, and

[00:26:56] Cody: being okay with

[00:26:57] Josiah: Yeah. And being okay with it. Yeah. And I was seeing like really good gains, even though I wasn't trying. Yeah. and then we started thinking about it

[00:27:06] Cody: Sort of trying to, yeah. In

[00:27:07] Josiah: intellectual wise. Yep.

[00:27:09] Cody: Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:10] Josiah: So that's why I am going to a trainer, because I'm like, I, you know, especially after you moved, I'm like, I'm not going by myself.

[00:27:17] Yeah. And I need someone who can do those things for me so that I can just focus on being in the moment. It's almost like a, a meditative experience for me sometimes where I can get into the state of just like, it's like I'm transferring, you know? Normally when you think about. Being conscious.

[00:27:34] It happens like right behind your eyeballs. You know? That's kind of where your seat of consciousness is. Yeah. But I've had experiences, uh. where that has transferred to other places. And you know, when I was under the influence, it was very strong. But, you know, but I, I feel like there's, there are practices that I've done and exercising is, is becoming one of them.

[00:27:57] Where I am, I'm taking that consciousness seat and I'm moving it to a different place in my body where I'm just like sort of living there and focusing there. And it's just weird whether or not this actually happening, you know? Or it's just my imagination doesn't really matter. It's like this practice that's helping me move out of my head Yeah.

[00:28:16] And into my body in a very tangible way.

[00:28:20] Cody: yeah. Yeah, for sure. I, I, I think, and I think, I'm sure it is, it feels probably more meditative. I think the one-on-one aspect of you with the trainer is a really interesting point to make about that too. 'cause I don't like being a part of groups either. So like, I think if I was in a situation where it was just me and one other person, used to do mixed martial arts.

[00:28:40] For a lot of years before I started playing guitar or anything like that, and a lot of that is a one-on-one training. Like you do these classes, you start out, but it's only like what, 20 people tops, maybe less. And so. And you do like sparring together, but then there's like sections of the class where you do get into really small groups and do one-on-one.

[00:29:00] A lot of one-on-one stuff. And I would do like one-on-one training outside of class and stuff. And I always really enjoyed it and loved that. And I think about going to do things like play pickleball that's also one-on-one. It's not, you're getting a lot of exercise, but it's something fun to do that I'm actually enjoying and enjoying building that connection with one other person.

[00:29:16] I go back, that's like the sexual stacking, I guess, coming out in that way where I, I do. I, it's what helped me decide that I had the, the middle stacking was the sexual subtype because of the fact that I always fall back to

[00:29:32] Josiah: Oh, when you said sexual stacking, you were talking about subtypes.

[00:29:38] Cody: What is this podcast? Oh man,

[00:29:48] Josiah: I totally derailed you. Sorry.

[00:29:50] Cody: did. Yeah. Uh, Yeah, so anyway, I, it's easy for

[00:29:55] Josiah: that, that's not what I'm talking about when I say sexual stack.

[00:30:02] Cody: I'm gonna leave this in.

[00:30:03] Josiah: Oh, great. That's

[00:30:06] Cody: you get.

[00:30:06] Josiah: I know.

[00:33:23] Cody: Yeah. I, I, I feel like. I rely, or I lean into that a lot more than I ever thought I did in terms of like finding that connection. The connection part piece is what helps me want to do those things and be in that place more. And again, maybe that's also some religious you know, influence in a different kind of way because of how.

[00:33:47] Like one-on-one Bible studies at a coffee shop, you know? So encouraged and like how you progress forward is with another person.

[00:33:55] Josiah: Yeah. Accountability partners account.

[00:33:57] Cody: partners. Yeah. Which I don't like that

[00:33:59] Josiah: That's not.

[00:33:59] Cody: That's not what I wanna, that, that's a little triggering actually.

[00:34:03] Josiah: I, I was just thinking too about the different types of intelligence and I feel like there's one, maybe not until this moment I really thought thought about much. Mm-hmm.

[00:34:12] Which is like, nature intelligence, I don't know what else to call it, but kind of being in tune with, with nature. I've noticed myself, I guess noticing more.

[00:34:22] Cody: You noticed yourself noticing more. I like that.

[00:34:27] Josiah: So I've been working outside a lot. The last, I don't know, month, month and a half, I think I've set up this area on our front porch where I can actually sit and work and I started just making myself go out there every morning.

[00:34:43] Cody: When you first said this, I thought you were thinking like, I thought you were talking about like working out in your, with your

[00:34:47] Josiah: Oh, no, no. Outside.

[00:34:49] Cody: lot more and I was thinking, me too. I just bought this house

[00:34:52] Josiah: mean, I, I am, I am doing that. Yes. But that wasn't what I was talking 

[00:34:56] Cody: working outside.

[00:34:56] Real rough with my hands, taking my computer

[00:34:58] Josiah: with my little coffee in the morning.

[00:35:02] Cody: with your little slippers on.

[00:35:04] Josiah: That's true. That's what I do.

[00:35:08] Cody: Nice.

[00:35:08] Josiah: Uh, Yeah. Every morning I go out and sit out there and. And then, you know, it was starting to get really hot and so I bought, I bought this little rechargeable fan because I want to extend the amount of time I can sit outside. And so, even in, I think in August, you know, I was able to sit out there most of the day and That's crazy.

[00:35:30] Yeah. And, and I was just adapting to that. And it was weird because I found myself. Noticing nature more around me and there's this one little hummingbird that would come up and like fly up, you know, once every morning. Yeah. And just kinda look at me and then fly away and I'm like, I don't remember the last time I saw a hummingbird.

[00:35:52] You know? And yeah, and, and maybe that's just a general awareness, but I feel like there's something in that where I am feeling more connected to nature. It sounds really. Silly and woo woo, but it's, it's hard to explain. It's hard to put into words.

[00:36:07] Cody: well, you know, I think there's a way of saying that. Or the way of framing it, maybe in, in from the perspective of that, just like getting out of your brain into your body. Is a form of like, of growing that intelligence, of better understanding with your body and get and emotions and like you can feel those emotions if you're in your body more.

[00:36:26] Well then taking that outside of your body and putting, putting you as your being in maybe the appropriate place in the world because by being connected to the nature and the the world around you, it's. It's like looking at the stars, you think of like, okay, like I'm, not only am I connected to everything around me, but I now feel smaller and humble in a humble way.

[00:36:49] Right? Like it puts you in this place where it, it makes you, I find myself filled with more gratitude for my life and for the people in it and for the things in my life when I am in those moments where I do feel connected to not only myself, but everything around

[00:37:04] Josiah: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. it definitely gives you perspective, and that to me is definitely a form of intelligence. It's being able to step outside of, sort of the current. Frame mm-hmm. Of whatever's going on and be able to see it from a different perspective and

[00:37:22] Cody: being like the wisdom, the old, the wisdom of the elders,

[00:37:26] Josiah: you go.

[00:37:26] Yeah, totally.

[00:37:28] Cody: I had an experience recently when I went to visit my parents and my brother being down there when he was in, in the country. And and his partner got there and they had their daughter there. My niece and we were spending time together and they wanted to go on this, well, they wanted to take, go down to like where this dock was in, in this.

[00:37:46] It was like a big river that goes out to the ocean. And I'd never been down there before. And so we're walking along, we're like, but of course my brother being a botanist and his partner's also a botanist, they wanna look at plants a lot. They wanna stop and like really look at them and they talk about all of the intricacies of each pet on the flower and like, all why these things do these things.

[00:38:04] And it used to. Get on my nerves so bad when they would do that, I would, I would, I would leave my body in the situation. You know, it's just like, I'm, I am, I'm now gone. I don't, I can't listen to this anymore, but I found myself this time. I don't know if it was just the place that I'm in, the fact that it was probably some THC in my body, but I was more content with just being there and accepting what was happening and appreciating the smaller. Things, it, it, it again, it like puts you in that place where you kind of think about your, your place in the world and, and with those around you. And I was like more thankful that I was spending time with them and getting that time. I, I, I. But down there I do that a lot. Like my parents basically live on their front porch, so when I'm there, we just sit out and talk and sit out there for hours.

[00:38:48] And I, they have all those hummingbird feeders

[00:38:50] Josiah: Yeah.

[00:38:51] Cody: Yeah. So it's like all these hummingbirds and they have a ton of lizards everywhere. So it's, there's a lot to look at down

[00:38:55] Josiah: there. Yeah.

[00:38:55] Cody: very different and feels foreign to where we are in the country. And yeah, I think that's uh, it's definitely a, a part of intelligence or wisdom and being able to kind of add that to your tool bag.

[00:39:06] Josiah: difficult. Yeah. Another one is the social intelligence,

[00:39:11] Cody: Yeah, sure.

[00:39:12] Josiah: because

[00:39:13] Cody: it definitely deserves its own

[00:39:15] Josiah: yeah. It deserves its own category. 'cause there are some people who just know how to get along with people really well and how to create harmony and how to create situations where everybody gets what they want.

[00:39:28] And I have sort of idolized that. My whole life and I think because I'm a, a social subtype, I was always fascinated with trying to analyze how to, build that skill. Mm-hmm. And

[00:39:41] Cody: That's funny to think about because if that, if your social subtype is influencing that, then you overanalyze trying to become more social. Whereas if mine was more leaning into like, especially look when I was younger having the sexual subtype, so then I was overanalyzing how to create like one-on-one relationships and situations with people that would be like.

[00:39:59] What I would imagine and with my high expectations at that point. So it is funny how that is it, it really changes your perspective on totally what you're after.

[00:40:06] Josiah: Yeah, absolutely. I think we talked about that some in the subtypes episode with Sam, where we kind of figured out in real time that like, oh, our subtype deeply influences what it is that we. Are are okay. Are not okay. Feeling incompetent in, you know, like where we want to build that competence.

[00:40:23] Yeah. What, what draws us, you know, what areas draws us Yeah. For,

[00:40:27] Cody: to like, make us feel incompetent and insecure.

[00:40:30] Josiah: for, for me it was social. Sure. And, and it took a long, long time. And so any really, like most of the, The success that I've had in my life has come down to me building that skill, like building that intelligence out because every time I've tried to approach things, especially social situations, from that intellectual, analytical perspective, I always fucked it up.

[00:40:53] Like, you know, I always said something. Usually like harsh or judgmental or I just had zero tact. Yeah. And zero tact, right? Mm-hmm. And, and that got me nowhere. It got me negative where like it was you know, I actually lost. I did. I did. But when I started. I don't even, I don't even know how I went about the process necessarily.

[00:41:23] It was just more practicing shutting my brain off in social interactions in kind of a way where I'm not trying to analyze the situation, but I'm just trying to be present.

[00:41:33] Cody: just going on standby power. You're just on autopilot.

[00:41:37] Josiah: Did it?

[00:41:37] Cody: Did

[00:41:39] Josiah: But no, I rather than, rather than sitting back and observing. Letting myself be present and sit with the awkwardness and just work my way through it. 'cause what I found was it actually doesn't last very long. Usually once I let myself work through it and, and then I'm, I'm, when I'm present, then I can.

[00:41:59] Connect and respond. And it took me so long to figure that out. But that's how people who have a high, like emotional and social intelligence, that's how, like, that's essentially what they're doing is they're, they're present and they're connecting and they're it's, it's like all this, it's all, it's happening all on these layers underneath of what you can observe.

[00:42:21] I've, I feel like, and so that's why it was so hard for me for a long time to, to analytically figure out what was going on. 'cause it wasn't. Observable. It's something that has to be experienced, you know?

[00:42:31] Cody: my, one of my greatest fears in social situations is this, the, the, the awkward silence. And it's always been a problem for

[00:42:39] Josiah: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:39] Cody: and I've noticed that when I've, I've let myself on a conscious level. Be like, I'm just gonna let 'em happen and see what happens.

[00:42:52] And.

[00:42:53] because I've found that, I mean, any, any favorite movie of mine that has a really great narrative, a lot of times the best moments happen right after an awkward pause.

[00:43:03] And it's when your, your brain slows down to that moment and say it. I found that it's actually those, those awkward pauses I was so afraid of aren't that awkward. And usually it's somebody else feeling starting to feel that space because they're feeling awkward, you know? But when you get that moment where you're in, you, you realize you're in someone's presence that's just as okay with the awkward silence as you and just lets it happen.

[00:43:28] And it's almost. That's almost more connecting to people. I feel more connected to somebody in a, in a moment of silence in the middle of a conversation than I do any other time because I'm up here thinking in conversation and then it's like there's nothing happening. So my brain like hyper focuses on what's going on and I'm super present.

[00:43:46] Yeah. And so then I feel really connected. So

[00:43:48] Josiah: Yeah. There's another part of it too. I think it's called transference. It's it's, it's, it's what therapists do essentially, where they create that, that vacuum. Yeah. You know, they create that silence that, that, that space. Yeah. And and, and then it, it like draws.

[00:44:07] Draws the stuff out of you that would normally not come to the surface. Just that vacuum, you know? 

[00:44:14] Cody: My vacuum is apparently a microphone.

[00:44:21] Josiah: Yeah,

[00:44:22] Cody: as soon as we start recording, I'm like, I'm gonna

[00:44:23] Josiah: talk.

[00:44:24] Cody: all these things.

[00:44:27] Josiah: Do you listen or

[00:44:27] Cody: Be glad that I edit.

[00:44:29] Josiah: I'll just tell you that sometimes

[00:44:30] Cody: I go on a ramble that nobody

[00:44:32] Josiah: well, I feel like we've also created this sort of Pavlovian in response to the microphones. You know, I was

[00:44:37] Cody: but when I was really nervous and overthinking it before we ever started, the moment we sat down and gotten behind a mic, got behind a microphone, maybe it was the, the entertainer in me, the performer in in me, that has been unintentionally cultivated over the last 30 years. But as soon as I got behind a microphone, I felt more comfortable and I felt like, oh, this is just what we do and it's, it's, it'll be fine.

[00:44:56] And all of those fears went away and it took a lot, many episodes before I did. Create that Babylonian response where I wasn't just, I wasn't, I wasn't afraid to sit down and do it because a lot of it was the dreading up to the moment.

[00:45:08] Josiah: fun. Yeah. And also there's something weird about. weird, helpful about having headphones and the microphones. Yes. Like just having your voice right in my ear and my own voice. Also in my ear outside, it's like out going outside of my head and then coming back in. Well,

[00:45:23] Cody: and for me, I have, I have really bad hearing, so

[00:45:26] Josiah: I

[00:45:26] Cody: can't understand. I, I work with this this woman that is great and she's new and, and I've, she was one of my buyers at one of my accounts and.

[00:45:35] She speaks. She's such a nice person. She's one of those like genuinely nice. You really care about what she has to say. She's very thoughtful and very witty. She talks at a volume and a frequency, I cannot hear.

[00:45:46] Josiah: Oh no. So

[00:45:47] Cody: I constantly cannot hear anything she's saying. But like, you know, if we're, if we're texting or something, it's like we're having the great conversations.

[00:45:54] All, you know, it's all these points talking in person. I'm like, I can't hear anything you're saying. And, and this other guy that I work with he's the same way. Like he'll suddenly like start talking really quiet and he just talks really fast like this. And I'm like, I have, I lost you about 15 seconds ago.

[00:46:06] I don't know anything that's happening. So I think for me, the headphones. Definitely help with that. And also a sensory thing for sure. You know, it's, it's, it's more, I don't, I don't wanna say it's like a SMR, but it's like, it kind of, it's so satisfying to my brain to hear your voice that close to my ears.

[00:46:21] So Yeah, definitely is.

[00:46:25] Josiah: I love you too, Cody. Closest. You'll 

[00:46:29] Cody: yeah,

[00:46:31] Josiah: So I, I started the conversation with all of that nonsense about, you know, the tests that I've taken.

[00:46:41] Cody: Yeah, I forgot what that was, how we started it.

[00:46:44] Josiah: There is a, there is kind of a point behind that in that it's not just us as fives and I think that we lose sight of. how detrimental over-relying on intellect can be. Partially because society overvalues that form of intelligence because it's very useful in science and technology, right? Sure. Which is, you know, powering our society and economy, you know, and all of that in our every single, yes, exactly. Yeah. But We miss out on and undervalue these other types of intelligence that are just as valuable and oftentimes in many situations more valuable.

[00:47:26] And even, you know, the reason why I brought up the test is because like we, we created all these tests to measure intellect and we, we put people through school and we make them take the test and we rank them based on all of that. We just ignore most of the rest of the types of intelligence. You know what I mean?

[00:47:44] Like, and, and so, you know, if you're a five and you're good at those kinds of tests, then it, it, you know, which basically is what it was with me. I was just good at, at taking tests and I don't actually think that I'm smarter than most other people. Yeah. Like it's just, I'm just was good at taking tests and there are some people, so Amy's a great example of this.

[00:48:06] I definitely think she's as smart, if not smarter than me. And she was not good at taking tests

[00:48:11] Cody: cheap. 

[00:48:12] Yeah.

[00:48:12] Josiah: and it's terrible at taking tests. Yeah. And so, and, and so, but it's just a great illustration of how we overemphasize intellect as fives and as a society and we deemphasize, you know, emotional intelligence and bodily intelligence and social intelligence and.

[00:48:33] You know, nature, intelligence, whatever we wanna call that, right? And, and so I think the, the, the purpose of this conversation was to help kind of reframe and reset and bring back this awareness of intelligence as a, a whole, a holistic intelligence, and not just relying on our intellect and our an analytical abilities.

[00:48:55] Because if, you know, like we talked about, if we just rely on those. Not only will we not build up the skills, not build up the muscle of the other intelligences, but we'll also burn ourselves out.

[00:49:08] Cody: Right. Yeah.

[00:49:09] Josiah: Yeah.

[00:49:09] Cody: Kind of. The Enneagram is a test that is not for intellect in that way. Because it's kind of the anti intellect, you know, because it, it, it's about like getting to the core of who you are and your feeling and your motivation. So like, that's why we're

[00:49:24] Josiah: Yeah. That's why we're here.

[00:49:24] Cody: why we're 

[00:49:25] here.

[00:49:27] Josiah: Well, that's all I have to say. Alright. Okay.

[00:49:31] Cody: we'll see you guys next

[00:49:32] Josiah: Alright. Bye.

[00:49:33] Cody: Bye-Bye.