Is Josiah Really a Five?

Introduction and Opening Question

[00:00:30] Cody: So Josiah,

[00:00:32] Josiah: Yes. Cody, 

[00:00:34] Cody: would you rather be misunderstood for genius or understood fully, but seen as average?

[00:00:40] Josiah: for, I don't really care.

[00:00:46] Cody: You don't care at all? No. You don't care if you're understood and you don't care if you don't care how people see it or anything?

[00:00:55] Josiah: I don't. I don't think so.

[00:00:57] Cody: Hmm, that's

[00:00:59] Josiah: I have no, I have no attachment to the identity of genius.

[00:01:06] Cody: Okay. Well I have about 50 hours of audio that may suggest otherwise. 

The Enneagram Debate Begins

[00:01:47] Cody: Alright, so the day has finally come.

[00:01:51] Josiah: I think I know where this is going.

[00:01:55] Cody: after more evidence has been brought up and after more people have spoken up to me about it,

[00:02:02] Josiah: what

[00:02:04] Cody: it's time to talk about is Josiah really a five. Oh,

[00:02:08] Josiah: Oh, okay. All right. Go ahead.

[00:02:11] Cody: Yeah. Okay. So we've had, since the beginning, this has been a topic that we have almost done

[00:02:20] Josiah: Yeah.

[00:02:20] Cody: and just kept putting it off. 'cause it was like, whatever, do we even want to talk about it?

[00:02:25] Is it even fun? It wasn't, I didn't want do it until it seemed fun to me. And then I had some different ways of thinking about it and framing it in my head recently that made it seem fun to me. So we'll see how this goes. Maybe it gets released, maybe it doesn't. Maybe we're done in 10 minutes. We'll see.

[00:02:40] But. Yeah. 

Public Opinion and Enneagram Community

[00:02:42] Cody: So it's been kind of a topic of conversation on public forums about our show that maybe you're not, maybe you're not a five. Okay. And this is coming from the Enneagram community, which is funny. 

[00:02:56] Josiah: Wait, when you say Enneagram community, what do you mean?

[00:02:59] Cody: not our community. Public communities. Like Facebook.

[00:03:04] Facebook groups. Yeah. Like Facebook groups. Yeah. I don't know if anybody's talked about it on Reddit. I can't remember. I feel like I looked it up on there, but I don't remember seeing anything

[00:03:11] Josiah: Way down the rabbit hole.

[00:03:13] Cody: Yeah. And then, so what I decided to do, so then recently it was brought up to me again that maybe you're not a five.

[00:03:21] And I started, I was gonna say by who, but we're gonna find out who later.

[00:03:25] Josiah: I think I know who, go ahead.

[00:03:26] Cody: Yeah. 

ChatGPT Analysis and Results

[00:03:28] Cody: And it got me thinking, so I was like, well, you know, before when we wanted to do this episode. We didn't have chat. GBTI couldn't. It would've taken a long time okay. To really think about this. So what I did was I took transcripts from like 35 different episodes.

[00:03:43] Josiah: knew it. So I

[00:03:44] Cody: them in. I also uploaded a PDF of a few different Enneagram books, especially the wisdom of the Enneagram.

[00:03:50] Josiah: the Wisdom of the Enneagram. Yeah.

[00:03:50] Cody: Taught it all these things and then wanted it to try to tell me what type you were. Okay. And it did not say five.

[00:03:59] Josiah: Ooh.

[00:03:59] Cody: Ooh. So,

[00:04:00] Josiah: so this might be the end of the Enneagram five

[00:04:03] Cody: so I might be blowing us up.

[00:04:05] That's what I said this to Madison earlier. I was like, what if I ruining the show by doing the, maybe this is the last episode. And she, her perspective was, well, if you, if you end up.

[00:04:15] Josiah: up

[00:04:16] Cody: Unveiling something that it makes this whole thing kind of like a farce. Either way, people have gotten something out of it and it just has to grow into something new.

[00:04:25] Okay. And I was like, all right, cool. Whatever. We'll see. So we're gonna see how this ends. I don't know. Maybe it'll be fine. Maybe we, but then at least we can say we've talked about it so everybody can shut the hell up either way.

[00:04:34] Josiah: Sure. I'm game. Let's do it.

[00:04:35] Cody: it. Okay.

Josiah's Reaction and Reflections

[00:04:36] Josiah: For, for the record.

[00:04:37] Cody: Yeah.

[00:04:38] Josiah: I actually am excited to see where this goes. No, I know.

[00:04:41] Cody: Yeah. I figured you would be. I've, I was like, everybody's been like my mom. I was talking to her about it earlier and she was like, do you think he's gonna be like mad or defensive? I was like, no, I think he's gonna love it, because we've been thinking about doing this episode for years and it's just never felt

[00:04:51] Josiah: right. No, because, and I, and the reason for this is when this initially came up and a couple different times since Yeah.

[00:04:59] I legitimately asked myself like, am I a five? And I went down the rabbit hole. Right. and I think that there was. I can't prove this to you objectively, right. But I did it very open-minded because I genuinely wanted to know. Mm-hmm. And I ran through the scenario of like, okay, well we've started this podcast about being a five and then what if it, like, I find out that I'm not a five.

[00:05:20] I would think that was hilarious.

[00:05:25] Cody: all those people's hearts you've touched.

[00:05:29] Josiah: I, I would, I would think it was hilarious. So, well,

[00:05:32] Cody: all right, so,

[00:05:34] Josiah: so let's do it.

[00:05:35] Cody: So the question then became what type could you be if you're not a five? And there was one particular type that kept coming up over and over again and every analysis, it was very consistent. And then by the end of it, chat, GBT gave me about a 78% likelihood that you're, this type masquerading is a five unintentionally.

[00:05:52] Okay. Which is type three.

[00:06:01] Josiah: I

[00:06:01] Cody: didn't expect you to find it as funny as I did. Why do you think

[00:06:03] Josiah: it's funny? Because I know threes

[00:06:07] Cody: Yeah. So one way or another, we're gonna find out why it thinks you're a three, whether you are or whether you're not. So, all right. So, 

[00:06:17] Josiah: was not what I was expecting.

[00:06:19] Cody: What were you expecting?

[00:06:19] Josiah: I thought it was gonna say I was like a seven or something.

[00:06:22] Cody: Oh yeah, that would've been like, 'cause it's closely related to a five still.

[00:06:26] Well, yeah. So it thinks you're a three wing four. It also, it also changed my type. I found that something about me that didn't change my type, but it changed my wing to a four. So I was way more likely five wing four than five wing six based on, just based on how I talked about things and my overall like story arc.

[00:06:42] Okay. So I found in the results though, I gave it, it said that your, your, it came up with your average based on the consistency of the language and terminology used to just express emotion. Okay. And how consistent it is over four years. And it's just really interesting. So, I wanted to ask you this question anyway, just to kind of start us out.

[00:07:03] So when did you take the Enneagram test? Like when did you first,

[00:07:07] Josiah: I have, I don't know if I've ever taken the Enneagram test.

[00:07:11] Cody: How did you figure out your thought? You just read the descriptions. So

[00:07:14] Josiah: the first time I heard about the Enneagram, I think was on the Liturgist podcast. Okay. Yeah.

[00:07:20] Cody: Yeah, I think we maybe

[00:07:21] Josiah: And I, I remember them mentioning it at different times, but I, I hadn't really dug into it yet.

[00:07:26] Cody: different time.

[00:07:27] Josiah: And then they did an episode, it was like a two hour long episode where they went through the descriptions of every type and, and they went, you know, from one through nine and with every other type. I had no reaction. And when we got, when they got to a four, I was like, oh, yeah. Some of that resonates with me.

[00:07:45] Cody: Sure, yeah. We

[00:07:46] Josiah: When they got to a five, I was weeping. Mm. I felt so understood for the first time in my

[00:07:51] Cody: Okay.

[00:07:51] Josiah: Okay. Like they just nailed what my internal world is like. Yeah. and that, and I had already, I'd already been like a personality typing.

[00:07:59] I had, I'd done deep dives on different personality type systems. Sure. And so, like, I, I'm an INTP and I, I figured there would be some crossover with being a five potentially in that too. So I, I'd done enough of these tests, like I've done like strength finders and disc and like, you know, big five personnel, like all, like all the ones that were popular at the time.

[00:08:17] Mm-hmm. So I had a general sense of kind of what categories I might fit into, but I didn't, I didn't go and like look up the descriptions before I listened to that because I, I went into that like completely fresh

[00:08:30] Cody: yeah. That was the first time I heard about it too.

[00:08:31] Josiah: Yeah. Having no context. yeah, that was the only number.

[00:08:35] That I had that response to. And so then I went down the rabbit hole and a lot of stuff really resonated with me. Some of the five experience, I think is different for me because I'm social subtype and that took me a little while to figure out. Yeah.

[00:08:50] Cody: Yeah.

[00:08:50] Josiah: But yeah, that's how I found out I'm a five or how I found out that I think that I'm a five.

[00:08:59] Cody: Okay. Okay, cool. So, and you retook the, you retook the test?

[00:09:02] Josiah: I think I took it like an online test later on at some point, but I don't Yeah. And it said five. Okay. It was like five number one, and then nine was secondary, if I remember

[00:09:11] Cody: Interesting. Yeah, I think that, I feel like I said the same thing for me, which I was like the one I get, but the nine doesn't make any sense to me.

[00:09:17] But so I don't know if we should, should we, I, I got a little, I pulled something from the internet to give us a little, just like short description of both so we can kind of talk about maybe some of the differences of them. Okay. So anyone new to the Enneagram, type five called the investigator. Driven by the need to understand and conserve energy is what this says.

[00:09:39] I like, I like some of these like. Obviously we've gone into some of these. These are like entire episodes. They think deeply detach when overwhelmed and find safety and knowledge. But type three, the achiever is driven by a need to succeed and be seen as valuable. They adapt, perform, and chase productivity and recognition.

[00:09:57] A three, who thinks they're a five, might sound analytical, but their motive isn't clarity, it's control. They're not trying to understand the world. They're trying to look like they've mastered it.

[00:10:08] Josiah: trying so. So this, description? Mm-hmm. Well, hold on. What I wanna understand is where the three is coming from. So is it, is the three just coming from your chat GPT conversation or is it coming from other conversations you've had with people?

[00:10:28] Cody: It's coming from other conversations. 

Corey's Perspective and Guest Appearance

[00:10:32] Cody: Maybe this is a great time to bring in our special guest. Let's see.

[00:10:33] Do we have time? Yeah, I think we're okay. We're gonna give it, give him a call. He wanted me to call him.

[00:10:39] Josiah: You can pipe that into the road caster.

[00:10:41] Cody: It wouldn't work. Ah,

[00:10:42] Josiah: you tested

[00:10:42] Cody: I tested it. It wouldn't work. So we're, but I tried it through a microphone earlier and we're gonna see if this works.

[00:10:51] Josiah: microphone.

[00:10:52] Cody: Cody Harris. What's up Corey? Is this Josiah too?

[00:10:59] Josiah: Josiah is here.

[00:11:00] Cody: Nice. Lovely to be with you all. Okay, so we were just getting to the part of the conversation where. He was, we were talking about fives and threes and how they kind of cross over and he was wondering if I only got the type three from the internet or did I get it from somebody else?

[00:11:17] So I thought this would be a great time for you to pipe in and say your thoughts as someone who, for listeners Corey is worked on many Enneagram uh, things and he also has degrees in psychology and has worked around the Enneagram for a long time. Go ahead Corey. So wait. What am I supposed to say? Why do you what? Okay. I'll set myself up. I'll just set myself up. Yeah. You set yourself up, Josiah. Yes. Josiah. I have so much love for you when I say this,

[00:11:45] Josiah: I lo I love

[00:11:46] Cody: in a few years.

[00:11:47] Josiah: Yeah. I love you too, buddy. It's been a long time,

[00:11:49] Cody: but I was, when I saw y'all's podcast, I texted Cody.

[00:11:54] 'cause Cody and I chat every week about Survivor and other things. Yeah. And so, I was like, Cody, why are you doing a podcast with Josiah? He's a three through and through. And Cody's like, no, he, he, he identifies as a five. And I'm like, he is like the poster child for an Enneagram three. And I only say that out of love.

[00:12:15] I know we shouldn't tie people because I can hear, I can feel like Suzanne Ville, my Enneagram grandma telling me not to do this. But I was thinking back to our last phone call we probably ever had and you were like. Such a gifted person to try to get me to optimize and scale my freelance career, right?

[00:12:34] When it was like in a famine stage, it was like, os you know, I think I was talking to you on the phone about wanting to get out of it anyway because of the feast and famine nature of freelance, and you were like, just such a business person about scale and optimization. So I'm like, man, this guy is like, he's got it down.

[00:12:50] But then I just watch you from afar and you're, you're, you're, and this isn't me judging, I shouldn't do it. I feel guilt watching over me as I say this, but, you know, I watch you from afar, from like LinkedIn or whatever, whatnot. And I'm, I was telling, I was joking with Cody. I was like, he's like the, Michael Hyatt, like the work four hour work week or like, be your best like self in like a year kind of a person.

[00:13:14] And I'm like, I don't know if fives are like that. I think like that's I don't know if fives think like that, but. I feel guilt. So I will stop there because I, I love you dearly, but I don't know, you are, if you're a five, you're a five, you know, you are who you want to be, so.

[00:13:29] Josiah: Well, thanks for that input. I appreciate that. And I was telling Cody before this, like, if I'm not a five, I actually think that would be hilarious. Some context I think is important. The the time when you and I were talking, I was in deep coaching from a three for business because I lacked all of the skills that would.

[00:13:53] Helped me actually run my business because all I wanted to do was focus on learning, all of the things. Mm-hmm. Right. I would, I would go through all the tutorials and I would gather all the information on how to do all of this stuff, but then when it actually came to implementing it, I just froze up because I didn't wanna put myself out there.

[00:14:14] I didn't want to be seen. And, and so I, I hired different coaches to help me with that because I couldn't get there on my own. And my LinkedIn especially is actually written and curated and tailored by a, a coach that did it for me,

[00:14:33] Cody: who probably is a three

[00:14:34] Josiah: probably because he was like a, a group PM at Google,

[00:14:38] Cody: Oh, wow.

[00:14:39] Josiah: So. That if, if you're ju, if you're judging it based off of that it's, it's, it's helpful to know that context.

[00:14:47] Cody: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Hey, I just wanna put myself on the spot and say I joke with Cody that I thought you were a three, but please, no. Okay. You're no longer a helpful guest. Wow. No, you're back peddling. No, I'm not backpedaling. I'm just, you know, I, it's like the therapist in training in me. I'm like, you know, I don't know. I don't, I, I don't want to, put somebody down. I'm not, I hope I'm not putting you down, Josiah. No, I like, I don't, yeah, I would, I wouldn't have brought you you into this if I thought you were putting him down.

[00:15:17] Don't worry about that. I, I, I think it's, it's all in good fun. Obviously. It's all in good fun, but just not a damn, you are a, a you are, you could imitate Michael Haya pretty well from your, some of your online

[00:15:29] Josiah: I actually don't take that as a compliment, but I think it was meant as a compliment.

[00:15:36] Cody: Well, if you're a three, yeah, it's true.

[00:15:39] Okay. Well, maybe, I guess that's the end of the episode. All right. I, I, I don't know if I'll be here for the whole, oh, I guess this is like co Let me go. I, I'm eager to know where this ends up.

[00:15:50] You know, to know if this is the end of Enneagram five as we know it. Okay. Like, will Josiah do a, a spinoff or uh, for his three podcast if he, if he comes to terms with that or, yeah,

[00:16:02] Josiah: If I come to terms

[00:16:03] Cody: Yeah, I'm kidding. He's not apologizing about being wrong. He's just apologizing. He doesn't think he's wrong. 

[00:16:11] Josiah: No, I'm, I'm excited for you to hear the, the final conversation and, and get your opinion on that. Yeah. Maybe we can do a follow up and just like,

[00:16:18] Cody: that could be fun. He did say he wants to come to town, so maybe we could do it all in person.

[00:16:22] Yeah,

[00:16:22] Josiah: well, you're supposed to come to town on Halloween, but you know,

[00:16:26] Cody: I'm a listener so I am a listener, so I will be watching for this and I'm eager to know where you all end depth. Cool. Thanks Cory.

[00:16:34] Josiah: Thanks Corey.

[00:16:35] Cody: See you all. Bye-bye. Okay, bye.

[00:16:40]

[00:16:52] Response 1: So being a five doesn't mean that I can't perform or express myself 

[00:16:57] or connect deeply with people. I think the instincts also play a big role in this. For the longest time, I thought I was a four I before I discovered the instincts on a deeper level. After I learned more about the instincts and revisited the Enneagram and core patterns, I realized that I was actually a sexual five, which can look a lot like a four.

[00:17:20] So I think that from the outside looking in, many types can look like other types just because of behaviors or how they might be presenting. But we don't truly know. Someone's inner world and core motivations and core fears better than they know it themselves, and to claim to know someone's inner world better than they know it themselves is literally just invalidating their whole experience of themselves, which I don't think anyone really has the right to do and also can't really do accurately because.

[00:17:58] There's really no way for someone to know how the other person is feeling on the inside. It's all just interpretation and perception based on your own experience. So I think it's important to just let people discover and come to their own conclusions about their type.

[00:18:18] Be okay with ambiguity and complexity in human beings because we don't have to fit the stereotype to be able to relate to something strongly. 

[00:18:39] I was once accused of not being a five by, uh, another user of the Enneagram subreddit. 

[00:18:50] and I don't even remember exactly what I had said, but it was something where I was just asking the community about their opinions about something. So this person was saying, oh no, you sound like such a six or a nine.

[00:19:10] I think it was my own post about, about something, but it was where I was reflecting deeply or 

[00:19:17] asking, uh, the community for its opinion, and that meant I was a six or a nine 

[00:19:22] and 

[00:19:23] I felt 

[00:19:24] like 

[00:19:25] no. No, I'm just trying to grow. I'm, I'm trying to reflect and I'm trying to ask for input because I've learned that that's something I've been lacking.

[00:19:37] That's why I am doing that. But I'm still doing it from a place of five. And of course I had a little bit of, uh, feeling like I could have had a better response to that person, but. I think I actually literally said, who me? Because I wasn't sure they were actually even addressing me. my understanding of five ness has changed in that, um, the, the piece of it that's about expectation has.

[00:20:04] Kind of grown in my understanding. Um, the way we deal with expectation has, um, become a bigger and bigger part of what I think it means to, to be a five. Uh, we are so sensitive to expectation. I love that you did this, by the way. You know,

[00:20:36] Cody: I, you know, I just,

[00:20:37] Josiah: I can tell you put a lot into this.

[00:20:39] Cody: Well, I, if I was gonna do it, I wanted to really try to do it so we could have, okay. So we could have some fun at this point. Um,

[00:20:45] Josiah: On. I wanna go back to the, the definition here. 'cause there were a couple points that I wanted to bring up.

[00:20:49] So, can you read this? What it said about a a three mask. Well, let's read that whole thing that you read a minute ago.

[00:20:54] Cody: Type five called The investigator is driven by a need to understand and conserve energy. They think deeply detach when overwhelmed and find safety and knowledge. The type three, the achiever is driven by a need to succeed and be seen as valuable.

[00:21:09] They adapt, perform, and chase productivity and recognition. A three, who thinks they're a five, might sound analytical, but their motive isn't clarity, it's control. They're trying, they're not trying to understand the world. They're trying to look like they've mastered it. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:24] Josiah: Okay. So the description of the five mm-hmm. Is a very accurate description of my inner world.

[00:21:30] Cody: Yeah.

[00:21:31] Josiah: all right. So first, driven by a need to understand and conserve energy. The, the other thing I think is important about this is. I've done so much work over the last eight years Yeah. To work through my five ness. Mm-hmm. And, and to turn it into strengths, because this is all I did right through my twenties and like the beginning of my thirties was just focus on how do I conserve energy?

[00:21:55] How do I manage my energy? How do I do things in a way that takes less energy from me?

[00:22:01] Cody: Which, that could also be a three thing apparently. But,

[00:22:04] Josiah: but the, the difference is from my understanding reading this, like mm-hmm. The productivity, it wasn't productivity for performance or recognition. I don't give a shit about that.

[00:22:13] It was productivity for how do I, how do I not have to spend energy? Like, how do I do as little as possible Sure. And still have the life that I want to have. Yeah. Right. It would, it's all about that and it's all driven towards, like, I, I don't care about recognition. I don't care about. I don't care. Lemme see.

[00:22:33] I don't care about how I am seen in the world where I am now is I wanna make an impact, but that comes from my heart for helping people. Yeah. And, but that is selfishly coming from a place where I am trying to find the path that takes the least out of me. And the, and what I've found is the path that takes the least out of me is the path that aligns with.

[00:23:02] Kind of where my heart is. And, and so that's the only reason why I am doing any of this. Yeah. I do not want to be on camera. Right. I do not want to, I I don't want to be seen as this person who has all the answers. 'cause I definitely don't. Yeah. And even in the, I tell the, the, the members in the the fully five accelerator this all the time, I'm like, just as a reminder, I don't want you to be under any illusion that I have this stuff figured out.

[00:23:29] Like when we're on the calls, I'm like, I'm here with you doing this shit

[00:23:32] Cody: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:23:33] Josiah: this is just, this is a model that I've found works, has worked for me over the last eight years. And so we're going on this journey together, but don't you for a second think that I've take all, I've taken all these tools and mastered them and because I don't, I don't want them to think that because it's not true

[00:23:50] Cody: all. Yeah.

[00:23:50] Josiah: Yeah.

[00:23:51] Cody: Okay. Yeah. And see, like that definitely leans you back into, into five a little bit. And I was also thinking about that terms in terms of like. See the one thing that got me this is, okay, I'll tell you from my perspective what made me wanna do this episode. So, is I started thinking about I started thinking about all the ways in which we differ and I found that there could be good conversation in the aspect of whether you're just a really strong social five or if that social part is how you mask five ness as a three or mask your three and make it look like a five.

[00:24:26] 'cause apparently that's a very common thing for threes to, to like look like fives a lot because sometimes it depends on parent parental, you know, all these things can come into play because if a three really is the achiever and if really is the person who wants, is, is more success driven and more like looking for like that kind of like admiration or recognition, then it would be easy to want to, if they are intellectual at all, it would look a lot like oh five in, in many ways.

[00:24:51] Josiah: Sure. And I could see that and. To be fair, I can see how my, like, my career path,

[00:24:58] Cody: mm-hmm.

[00:24:58] Josiah: trajectory my, you know, the, the choices I've made in stuff, like doing this podcast and running my own business and stuff like that. I could see how that could be seen as me being a three mm-hmm.

[00:25:09] Masquerading as a five

[00:25:10] Cody: right? Yeah. And they, and it al it, it, it, it emphasizes that that always happens unintentionally.

[00:25:15] People will really think they're fives like people. It's common. Sure. And so I'm wondering if maybe that's why people have been led to think in the past, why you may not be a five. I will say too, though, I think there's a lot of evidence. in the, obviously in both directions, which was what makes this fun and, but the thing that I was talking, who was I talking about this with?

[00:25:33] Maybe my mom or somebody I can't remember. I've been, I've been like thinking it out loud a lot with people and was saying like, the one thing that's always got me is the life coaching aspect of your life and the way in like, wanting to be in certain types of groups and certain, you know, especially groups with like other successful business owners or other successful things.

[00:25:51] I can see that to some extent wanting to do that as a five. But never doing it. You know what I mean? Like I, I'm, I'm all about, there's, there's no way I can ever imagine spending money to tell somebody else to like, hire them to tell me how to live my life. Like, I just, I don't know if I would do it. I just don't think I could.

[00:26:08] I would rather, if they have a book, I'll read it. If they have videos, I'll watch it. If they have worksheets, I'll work through them at home. Don't come into my life and tell me how to do things. Like I, this is my life, you know? And it's like, that's, that's a personal barrier. I feel like that gets broken.

[00:26:21] And so, and obviously I'm not a social five, so there is differences there, right? But that's something that we've never actually talked about really. And it's a big part of who you are and there's a big part of how you do things. And you have gotten, I think, quite good at being your own like type of life coach for other people and like through the fully five and how you can like kinda help people guide through it with without knowing everything.

[00:26:41] Right? And that's kind of like the beauty of the model. And so I wanted to kind of explore that a little bit because it's interesting how you got there. And maybe if you can like kind of go through that process in a short, kind of a short version, we can kind of see how you got there and hear, hear some evidence either

[00:26:57] Josiah: Yes, absolutely. That, that makes sense. And from my understanding,

[00:27:00] the wanting to belong to elite groups is a key trait of a social five.

[00:27:05] Hmm. That and, and

[00:27:07] Cody: that that would be that. No wonder you have so many three friends in that group too. 'cause that's a big crossover.

[00:27:11] Josiah: Yeah. And so the life coaching thing is, is a great point. 

Josiah's Journey and Self-Discovery

[00:27:15] Josiah: And I think, again, context on this is, is really helpful because We have to go all the way back to summer of 2017.

[00:27:23] Cody: Yeah.

[00:27:23] Josiah: I got laid off and, oh no, sorry, I didn't get laid off.

[00:27:27] I thought I was gonna get fired.

[00:27:29] Cody: Oh yeah. And

[00:27:30] Josiah: I had spent 18 months in this job and way over my head feeling completely incompetent and like a failure. Afraid I was gonna get fired. And then I show up one day and my boss is like, yeah, you don't have what it takes. We're demoting you. And that was a wake up call because I had realized that I was having such a hard time.

[00:27:51] I was in my head all the time. I lacked social skills. Anytime someone came to me with a question. So in my job, I'm in product management, or it wasn't product management. And you have to make high stakes decisions.

[00:28:05] Cody: with

[00:28:05] Josiah: Limited information, and then you have to be able to justify why you made those decisions for business reasons.

[00:28:12] Yeah. Right?

[00:28:13] Cody: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:13] Josiah: and, and if I could sit and like quietly and deeply think through it, I could, I could, I could walk all that through, but that you don't get a chance to do that. Mm-hmm. Because you're in a boardroom and an executive asks you, you know, the reasoning behind this decision, and you have to be able to have a good reason for like, any decision that was made.

[00:28:32] And I would freeze, like deer in the headlights. Mm-hmm. And it was awful. Yeah. And and so I got demoted, right? And then I it was a wake up call because I realized the path that I was on. Was not gonna take me to where I wanted to go. Mm-hmm.

[00:28:52] Cody: I was

[00:28:52] Josiah: And I was trying to figure out what to do next. And I read this book that helped me go through an exercise that to get more clarity, and that helped me realize that the path that I was on was not gonna take me to where I wanted to go.

[00:29:06] And I'll talk about where I wanted to go because I think that's really relevant, but we'll, we'll come back to that. Okay. and so like, I, I came to this realization one afternoon. I talked to Amy that evening and she's like, I've been waiting for you to figure this out for a while. Like, yeah, you know, I support you do what you gotta do.

[00:29:20] Mm-hmm. I walked in the next day and I quit on the spot. I had no plan. I had no idea what I was going to do.

[00:29:26] Cody: Right.

[00:29:27] Josiah: And I just knew that I had to make a change before. I thought about it too much because if I thought about it too much, I was gonna talk myself out of it, and I was never actually going to change my life.

[00:29:36] Yeah. and so then that was, there's this whole journey where I, I'm like, okay, well I've got some, you know, like website development skills. I can fall back on that for a little while and, and I can start doing some freelancing. And then I'm like, wait a second, how do I even go about this process of finding clients and working with clients and having clients actually like me?

[00:29:55] And I'm like, this, I have no idea what I'm doing. And so then like, I tried to research, I tried to do some stuff on my own. I'm like, this is not, this is just not working. And so I started listening to podcasts, right? And I started listening to business podcasts because I'm like, well, I've gotta figure out what business is

[00:30:09] Cody: right? And so

[00:30:09] Josiah: right?

[00:30:10] And so I listened to a lot of business podcasts and like in a short amount of time and through that I re I realized that my business is a direct reflection of me. So if I want to grow my business, I have to grow myself first, right? So I hired a life coach and. It was through this process. She took me as someone local here in Chattanooga, and she took me through her process where she does a lot of stuff around the inner critic.

[00:30:36] Cody: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:36] Josiah: And one of the things that she had me do was write out like a, a very descrip descriptive like description.

[00:30:43] Cody: descriptive description. I like that.

[00:30:45] Josiah: very detailed description

[00:30:46] Cody: Yeah.

[00:30:48] Josiah: of what this inner critic looks like and sounds like, and the things that it says to me. Mm. And, and so I did that and, and, and she said, also, give it a name.

[00:30:57] I'm like, okay. So I basically described the version of me when I was 19 in my parents' basement, sitting in the dark with a black hoodie on watching anime, angry at the world. Like,

[00:31:10] Cody: Okay.

[00:31:11] Josiah: like, didn't want anyone to interact with me. I was isolated. I was lonely, but I had all these feelings that I didn't know how to process.

[00:31:21] I didn't want to acknowledge that I had. and I just didn't have the tools to express myself or connect with other people. Sure. and then. I started listing out the things that it would say to me, But essentially I wrote all this out and I gave this inner critic the name, the Cynic,

[00:31:39] Cody: Because

[00:31:39] Josiah: so the main thing that it would say to me was

[00:31:43] Cody: things

[00:31:43] Josiah: that you want in your life, the, the picture of, of what you want your life to look like. Even if you got it, it wouldn't be worth the effort,

[00:31:51] Cody: Mm.

[00:31:52] Josiah: so don't even try.

[00:31:53] It's not worth it. and so I gave this inner critic the name, the Cynic,

[00:31:57] Cody: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:57] Josiah: and, and this was the thing that, and as I was doing this exercise, realizing like this is the thing that's been on repeat in the background for me, my, pretty much my whole life mm-hmm.

[00:32:05] As far back as I can remember.

[00:32:08] Cody: Yeah.

[00:32:08] Josiah: And, there is this moment where really for the first time. In my life that I can think of. It was like the flip of a switch where my life completely changed trajectory internally and from one simple one simple sentence from my life coach. And she said, you realize that the cynic isn't you, right?

[00:32:31] Cody: is just

[00:32:32] Josiah: old programming.

[00:32:33] Cody: right?

[00:32:33] Josiah: And it was like all of this flooded in and I had this realization that, holy shit, like I thought that this was me. That this was my, my inner me, right? And that any time I did anything where I actually. I actually accomplished something or I achieve something. It was like, it's, it's outside of my who I am.

[00:32:54] And then it would just pull me right back down into that place and I could never gain any traction and get anywhere in relationships in school, in my career. It was like I was, I was just, I was fighting the tide

[00:33:07] Cody: Mm. And

[00:33:08] Josiah: and, and it was just pulling me back to this place. And when she said that, it was like instantly all the power that that had over me was gone. And I'm like, holy shit. I'm a programmer, so I know what it means to reprogram stuff.

[00:33:21] Cody: Right? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:23] Josiah: And, and so like, if, if, if this is true, then that means that I can reprogram myself. Mm-hmm. and so then the next like eight years that, that's been what program am I writing? And that's the, that's the journey that I went on.

[00:33:37] And so then I'm like, okay, well I don't know. I, I don't know anything about how to do this. And so, again, I went back and started listening to a lot of podcasts. And then I found a podcast that really resonated with me about subconscious reprogramming by a guy named Jim Forton. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:49] Cody: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:50] Josiah: Right. And and then they announced that there was going, that he, they were doing this webinar with him and I'm like, okay, well I wanna go find this out.

[00:33:59] And it was like he went through this whole thing and 'cause he, he had, he was a master hypnotist and also like neurolinguistic programming expert. And has been teaching psychological sales to like the highest performing sales people in real estate in the country, like the top 1%. And I'm pretty sure he's a three and, or that would be my guess.

[00:34:18] And and he's really, really, really good at what he does. And he walked through this whole, like his whole. Process for how do you reprogram your subconscious mind? Because it's those underlying beliefs that end up dictating a lot of your actions and your choices. And, and so you ha you can't, you, you can't come at it from that side where you just, through sheer willpower try to try to change.

[00:34:42] You have to address those underlying beliefs. And so I was at the first point in my life where, because I had quit my job and I removed my safety net, I was like, I was forced to confront all of this stuff, all the unhelpful beliefs and thought patterns and, and habits and all that stuff, because otherwise we couldn't eat.

[00:34:58] I, I had to figure out how to get through that in order to become the type of person who can actually run a business so that we can, you know, we can pay our bills.

[00:35:06] Cody: Well, and that's an interesting catalyst for that particular type of, of mindset. That mentality, that kind of like drive where maybe if it was a different circumstance, a different situation, a different time in your life, you wouldn't have gone to those lengths.

[00:35:20] You wouldn't have tried new things. You wouldn't have gone down that road. You may have been more fivey in that

[00:35:26] Josiah: I, I was more fivey and I wouldn't have, and the only reason I did is because I realized when I got that clarity that I had to take action now before my five ness caught up with me.

[00:35:35] Mm-hmm. And I talked myself out of it. Right. I overthought it. Right. Because it's like, it's, you know, it was not like me to just, you know, to just, I had a 1-year-old, like I went from making six figures to nothing overnight. And it was like, you know, what are we gonna do? No health insurance. We had to move into moved out of our downtown apartment in Nashville and moved into my in-laws basement in Chattanooga.

[00:35:56] Yeah. Right. And it was like, and, but so on this webinar he announced that he's launching this program. And I'm pretty sure I was the first person to sign up for this. I had my credit card ready. 'cause I'm like, if it's half as good as this webinar, I'm gonna get at least something out of it. And it's worth it to me because I've gotta figure this out and I've gotta figure it out fast.

[00:36:12] I don't have time. To wait around. I don't have time to do this slowly. I've gotta like, what is the quick Yeah. Route there because I gotta figure it out fast. Mm-hmm.

[00:36:22] Cody: And,

[00:36:22] Josiah: and so I did that and, and so the, it was really, it was a really good program. Like the, he goes through the different subconscious beliefs, but a big part of it for him is getting us to do daily self-hypnosis.

[00:36:34] And so for three times a day, for 90 days, I did self-hypnosis.

[00:36:41] Cody: Mm-hmm.

Reflecting on Personal Transformation

[00:36:42] Josiah: And the amount of transformation that I experienced in that time was. Orders of magnitude more than anything that I could have imagined. Sure. And,

[00:36:51] Cody: for listeners, IE go back of like 20 episodes. You can hear this story more in depth.

[00:36:56] Josiah: Yeah. So, so when Corey talks about, you know, him talking to me like it was around this time, I had just kind of gone through all of this stuff Sure.

[00:37:04] And I had

[00:37:05] Cody: fresh had a lot of three influence all at once. Yeah. And a lot of three energy.

[00:37:09] Josiah: And a lot of like, very action oriented, because that's what I was working on. I was like, how do I stop living in my head and actually do something with my life? Right. 

The Role of a Life Coach

[00:37:24] Josiah: And, and so going back to the, the whole life coaching thing, I don't want to be a life coach.

[00:37:25] I, I don't consider myself a life coach. Right. I don't wanna be a life

[00:37:28] Cody: Yeah. Well, it's JI say that Bec, let me just stop here for a second. 

Embracing the Guru Mentality

[00:37:32] Cody: Going back to the Friends with Fives episode, when Brandon talked about how you've been wanted to be a guru since you were a kid, like the way that you would approach different things, like he would say, he just said, you always seem like the guru in the group.

[00:37:43] And like you knew more than everybody. Of course, that was attached with some like religious judgment. Yes. But and then, but you take all of that away then the guru mentality, that kind of energy you bring to a room, not you, but just in general would be much more like giving and helpful and like, and, and potentially, I mean obviously hopefully productive for people around you.

[00:38:01] Right. It's like the more of the real guru energy. But it's interesting. It's been like a theme in your life at least from the external looking

[00:38:07] Josiah: Yeah. From the external looking in.

[00:38:08] And so it wasn't from, for me, at least from my perspective, it was never about being a guru. I, it's also important, important to know that I was so lonely growing up

[00:38:18] Cody: There

[00:38:18] Josiah: and there were very few people in my life that I felt like actually took the time to see me and know me and, and invest in me. Yeah. And if I hadn't had them, I wouldn't be here.

[00:38:32] Right. I would've killed myself and. because I know how important it is for someone to be there for you and help you through things. Yeah. I've always had a heart for that.

[00:38:45] Cody: Yeah.

The Journey of Self-Discovery

[00:38:46] Josiah: and so when I went through this experience and I saw the power of, that life coach and then Jim, the subconscious reprogramming guy.

[00:38:54] Yeah. Um, Because I experienced such radical transformation in such a short period of time,

[00:38:59] Cody: Mm.

[00:39:00] Josiah: and then I kind of went on this journey after that of like, okay, what works for me? What doesn't work for me? What, Resonates with my five ness in a way that, that spurs me towards growth. And then what can I throw out?

[00:39:12] And it's just been this constant process of like figuring out, okay, what is this model that I'm working from? And, all of that has been, in the background, a heart for, okay, I wanna be able to help people who are on the same

[00:39:25] Cody: Mm-hmm. 

Creating Fully Five

[00:39:26] Josiah: so that's why I developed fully five. But, you know, if it's not fives, it's whatever I, you know, it's, that's just a label.

[00:39:32] That's just a frame to put on the type of person that I am and the journey that I've been on. And for the fives, who are also wanting to grow, who are not wanting to stay stuck in their heads all the time. Who actually want to have energy and who want to have relationships and who want to be able to express themselves and show up authentically.

[00:39:54] Like for those people. 

Avoiding Pitfalls and Helping Others

[00:39:55] Josiah: I wanna be able to provide something for them that helps them avoid the pitfalls that I fell into. Sure. Right. Because I've spent, this sounds crazy, but I've spent over $40,000 in

[00:40:08] Cody: in the last,

[00:40:09] Josiah: the last eight years on this. Right?

[00:40:11] Cody: Yeah.

[00:40:12] Josiah: And I don't want, like, my, my goal is to help people so they don't have to spend eight years and $40,000.

[00:40:18] Right?

[00:40:19] Cody: Yeah, definitely.

[00:40:20] Josiah: And, and that's why I'm doing what I'm doing.

[00:40:22] Cody: Mm.

The Challenge of Authenticity

[00:40:23] Josiah: But it all comes back to like, my end goal is a very selfish one.

[00:40:28] Cody: which is

[00:40:30] Josiah: I want. To have the freedom to do whatever the fuck I want and not have any obligations and go, like, if I want to go live in a cabin by myself in the woods, I can do that.

[00:40:41] Right? Yeah. Like it's, it's not about recognition, like the, this is a means to an end,

[00:40:47] Cody: Yeah, yeah,

[00:40:48] Josiah: know what I mean? Sure. And, and, but, but it's going back to what I was saying earlier, like trying to figure out what that means is that's sustainable for me because I, I've tried other things and I just get burned out.

[00:40:59] Yeah. Right. And, and it's because I wasn't, it's because I was, I wasn't doing the things that I was afraid to do

[00:41:05] Cody: Mm.

[00:41:05] Josiah: and, and because it's, it's stuff like this that. Fucking scares me. Like right. Not this, like, this conversation, but like being like, I don't, I don't like being on social. I don't like,

[00:41:15] Cody: Mm. Yeah.

[00:41:16] Josiah: I don't like having my face placed.

[00:41:18] Like, you know, you know how long it took me to get the videos ready to put on Instagram

[00:41:23] Cody: Yeah.

[00:41:24] Josiah: 'cause of all this internal resistance. And the only reason that I'm doing it now is 'cause I got laid off in February and I'm like, well, if I'm gonna do it, this is the time. You know? And so like, I went all in and I'm really glad that I did.

[00:41:35] And it's been amazing, but it has been the fucking hardest thing that I've had to do. Yeah. It's really hard. And it's hard because of all that internal resistance of not wanting to be seen of, of, you know, not like the other part of this too is, and there's a reason why I don't wanna call myself a guru because I don't wanna claim that I'm a guru because I feel like it'd be really easy to prove that I'm not a guru because I feel incompetent.

[00:42:02] Right. And so like, and, and the whole thing with the genius from the last conversation we had was just to prove because I, it was just to set up the fact that I'm an idiot.

[00:42:16] Cody: Yeah. And

[00:42:16] Josiah: Yeah. And to, and to contrast that with, yeah, you can have a sharp, analytical mind. But there's so much more to intelligence and there's so much more to life.

[00:42:24] And and we, we try to discount that as fives, right. So yeah, that hopefully sets some context on why the life coach, why the groups. 

[00:42:47] I think that 

[00:42:48] it's similar to introversion and extra virgin. 

[00:42:52] There might be fives out there that are ENFPs or TPS in the Myers-Briggs system, but still fives.

[00:43:00] And this is a great example because on the outside they may not look like fives. 

[00:43:05] if we go by the stereotypical description of what a five looks like. 

[00:43:09] But a five is still a complex human being 

[00:43:12] and all types are complex human beings. And. 

[00:43:16] The Enneagram is about core motivations and core fears and desires 

[00:43:20] and patterns that 

[00:43:22] aren't necessarily about behavior, 

[00:43:25] but about internal drives.

[00:43:28] And this is something I've discovered about myself because a lot of people, may be surprised that. I can talk in a group and that I can share without looking like I'm afraid of sharing. and I do have sides of me that are a little bit more performative and if not performative, they're just. A little bit more extroverted, but I know who I am at my core and how my mind works and how my internal patterns go, and that is very much being a five. 

[00:44:14] I've done a lot of things that certain people would describe as something that a, that a five would never do. 

[00:44:21] Like be social, share my feelings, 

[00:44:24] or record my voice to be shared on a podcast. 

[00:44:26] These though would be rather close-minded people 

[00:44:29] who on on one hand 

[00:44:31] would be stuck in, um, misleading stereotypes, 

[00:44:35] and on the other would be full on 

[00:44:36] into their, uh, truth cosman fallacy.

[00:44:39] Although I discovered my five ness quite a quickly and then it was rather obvious to me. 

[00:44:44] I regularly have doubts from time to time. 

[00:44:46] Usually I'm quite easygoing and conflict avoidant, and so I was considered a BM nine, but it was a seven. I identified as for a while for various reasons, but uh, I think this was because of my transmitting subtype, BNA five.

[00:45:03] It's not my identity, nor am I doing things because I'm on a five. It's the other way round most of the time. I tend to, um, unconsciously go back to certain patterns of thoughts, feelings, and behaviors, which in the a Enneagram language we describe as um, a Neo type five. Having this language and awareness is ex extremely important for me as it helps me to spot them.

[00:45:28] And find a way out if it's maladaptive, either for me or for those around me.

[00:45:43] Josiah: Does that make more sense? Are you still on the fence or what are you thinking?

[00:45:47] Cody: No, I, well, so it's interesting to hear, it's interesting to hear that story. You know, it's also maybe for those of you, you know, if we've all been in this together since the beginning and you're still listening, like we've heard different variations of the story in different contexts, but it's nice to kind of revisit it through this lens of like, okay, so if you are a five, then how did you, how did you get to where you can even do that?

[00:46:09] You know what I mean? Because I do it in my own way. I can get on a stage and perform with music and stuff, but to get up and talk in front of people and like, I also get the whole like wanting to help people not have to go through what you went through. I did that in jobs when I would like write a 30 page manual on how I did my job, to which no one ever read.

[00:46:28] But I'm like, you had it, you could have done a better job if you wanted to, you know, and, but I wouldn't make a video, you know? And so like, but that's not my, I'm not the social stacking, so like, I don't even have it in me to try to do something. I don't know, maybe that surprised myself, but I think it's also interesting to see too kind of just gleaning from that perspective, kind of that place of like, why, I don't know, like why fives would even get something out of that.

[00:46:55] You know what I mean? Because it's almost like, it's such a hard thing to get to that place where you can be that vulnerable in a group of strangers and then get something out of it. If you're a group, it may not be a group, it's also a one-on-one. But

[00:47:06] Josiah: Yeah. 

The Power of Group Dynamics

[00:47:11] Josiah: And, and, and this was a hypothesis that I kind of had going into this. Right. Right. It was what, you know, what's gonna happen Yeah. With a group of five. 'cause I've, I've seen the value of group programs. Mm-hmm. And it's, there's like,

[00:47:20] Cody: like,

[00:47:20] Josiah: I actually, I like it way better than one-on-one, because with one-on-one you can kind of hide.

[00:47:25] Yeah. Right. But with, with a group, like, it becomes, it becomes obvious when you're hiding and you have so many different perspectives on you, you know, and so many different people who can see different parts and call out blind spots and stuff like that. Yeah.

[00:47:38] Cody: Yeah.

[00:47:39] Josiah: But I'm like, I, I think honestly that the group setting of fives is, is going to make it easier to be vulnerable.

[00:47:48] And dude, I will tell you. It has wildly exceeded my expectations. Hmm. And, and the reason for this, I think I wrote a newsletter about this a couple months ago. So

[00:47:58] because we're fives and we we want to, we want to disengage, to observe, to gather more information before we step into things, right. We're always kind of holding ourselves back. And because of that, it's also really easy for us to feel like the odd person out. Right?

[00:48:17] Cody: easy for me. Yeah.

[00:48:17] Josiah: Yeah. And, and so, and like we never really fit in anywhere.

[00:48:22] And by the way, that's how I've always felt like even in these quote unquote elite groups, like Sure. You know, I think a part of that is me just like trying to find where I actually feel like I might fit.

[00:48:33] Cody: Yeah.

[00:48:33] Josiah: And, and so like, because of that, anyway, we, we are, we have our guard up, right? A lot too. Because we don't feel like people will understand us and or they'll have to overexplain ourselves or that they'll think we're really weird and 'cause we don't think the way that a lot of people do.

[00:48:52] Yeah. And, and so the beautiful thing about bringing together a group of fives is that we all have the same baseline, so we don't have to come in and explain ourselves. Like everybody just kind of gets it. Yeah, yeah. There are nuances and we all have different, you know, backgrounds and experiences and all that.

[00:49:11] Mm-hmm. But what I've seen in this is that the, what that does is it helps us to lower our guard much more quickly and it creates this low stakes environment where we can rehearse. And that's the beauty of it. Because on the calls that we do, basically, I, you know, I come in with some different discussion prompts and.

[00:49:32] At first we started doing it kind of like in smaller groups and breakout sessions and then realizing like, oh no, we're actually good. Like doing it as a full group right now. Yeah. And it's been amazing to see even after just like a couple of calls, someone coming in and completely opening up

[00:49:49] Cody: in. Mm.

[00:49:49] Josiah: and they like some of the, some of the fives are saying you know, I'm saying stuff on these calls that I never thought I would say out loud to another human.

[00:49:57] And I feel good about it. 

Overcoming Internal Resistance

[00:49:58] Josiah: I don't have this like vulnerability hangover because we come in, we do, we do breath work to help calm our nervous systems first, and we do a little bit of check-in and body scan and know what that does is that helps set that tone and then we can all kind of just relax and just let practice that showing up without the editor brain, without the curation and just let stuff come through us and let it be messy and it's okay.

[00:50:19] And the more we practice this in this low stakes environment, the more confidence we build up to actually go out into the world and show up authentically in the world. And that's basically. How I've been able to do this, like this, what, what everyone sees in the podcast is after years and years of small steps that have worked up to the point where I could actually do this.

[00:50:37] And, and most of that was, was fueled by me having to figure it out because I had to pay the bills. Right. It wasn't 'cause I wanted to do it. Yeah. And, and so like, that's, that's the part that, I get your point and at some point I'm gonna, I'm gonna make you do the accelerator

[00:50:55] Cody: I

[00:50:56] Josiah: and you'll see. Yeah, you'll see.

[00:50:58] but the other part of it too, kind of going back is like, you know, you said you never, you would never pay for someone to like tell you what to do in

[00:51:03] Cody: Mm.

[00:51:04] Josiah: And, and, but that's also not at all what we do. It's very much a here's. Some ways that we can frame something to think about, here's a worksheet for you to apply this internally and reflect and, and, and dig into your own beliefs around this topic.

[00:51:21] And then here's an exercise for you to integrate that and get the experience of what your body actually feels like when taking these small steps. And we kind of do the in, in little iterations on a week by week cadence. So you get that consistency. And it's not like these big changes, it's, it's the small things that come in or the, it's the small things that you do on a, on a week by week consistent basis that build up and compound over time.

[00:51:49] Right. And that's the other thing that I've learned is like the times where I try to come in and, and do all this change at once, it usually doesn't stick at all, right. But the times where I have found a way to do something that's sustainable and consistent. Over a long period of time. That's where I've seen the most growth.

[00:52:07] That's why, that's why the, you know, three days three times a day of hypnosis for 90 days was so effective for me. It was like I was just showing up and letting, you know, kind of trusting the process. And a lot of, I went into it very skeptical,

[00:52:21] Cody: Yeah.

[00:52:22] Josiah: but I'm like, you know what? I paid money for this so Right.

[00:52:25] You know, I'm gonna just see it through to the end. And by the end I was like, oh my God, this is incredible.

[00:52:31] Cody: And it's amazing how often that that happens, you know? And maybe it's, maybe it's us as fives that caused that, but. Or we're just like that where it's like we constantly have like our preconceived ideas of what things are gonna be and how they're gonna, how they're not gonna help us or whatever.

[00:52:46] 'cause it feels unsafe, so therefore we don't wanna do it. But like, anytime that I have gotten outta my comfort zone and decided to do something outside of my normal, like the float tank was one of those things. It it's surprisingly vulnerable to get completely naked in a strange room that you don't know anything about and get into a tank that you don't know what it is.

[00:53:03] Yeah. And so, and you don't know how it's gonna feel. And it's like, it's a very interesting, it's a very, it's like, it feels like you're getting birthed again. Like it's just a very strange, like, it's like you're back in the womb. It's probably not far off actually. Anyway. But, and that was life changing to do that, you know, that was like, for me it was, it completely radically changed how I felt about a lot of things after that.

[00:53:24] and how I felt about like, alternative types of therapy and things like that. And I know that, you know, anyway, but Trying to get to a place in, in our lives where as fives, we are able to see the benefits of getting outside of our comfort zones because we've done it enough times that it's, it's started to become muscle memory a little bit.

[00:53:42] Like that is something that I'm just now, I feel like starting to get to. I feel like I'm also just starting to get to a place where I allow myself to fully be comfortable around other people. Mm-hmm. And not many people, you're one of them. I feel like I'm like, we're finally at that place.

[00:53:56] Somehow something has clicked in my brain where it's like very easy for me to just like. Not be anything when we're hanging out, like just hang out. You know, a good example is the Halloween party that we just had a couple days ago, which also is gonna be evidence towards five ness for you. Which is that you got there and immediately we gravitated towards snack tables.

[00:54:17] We hung out in, in one or two spaces, but I remember I was constantly, 'cause I was in like party mode, everybody's at my house or host mode I should say. So I'm like checking in with everybody and I'd, I'd find myself and I'd be like, where the fuck is Josiah? Where did he go? And I'd find you like in the corner of the living room, like by yourself singing along to the music or something and like, just never with the group.

[00:54:38] It took you until the end of the night before you were like, actually I felt like a part of the group and talking to everybody and you know, had come out of your shell a little bit. That's quintessential five. Even as a social five, like that's, it's, I feel like that's a, that's a pretty good example of you being a five that.

[00:54:52] In social environments for sure. I think threes would feel the need to like, and, and, and you channel that three energy, I guess in some situations where it's like you feel the need to like touch base with certain people and like try to, you know, make an impact in some, in some way in a, in a group or conversation, which from what I learned, threes that are pretending to be fives are really good at that.

[00:55:12] And that it looks so similar. Actually I have a, I have the, according to the wisdom of the Enneagram, yeah. A three can look like a five when success starts to mean being the smartest person in the room instead of the most admired. But the motives different. Fives withdraw to protect their energy.

[00:55:28] Threes withdraw to protect their image. Fives need clarity, and threes need control. So if someone sounds introspective, but always lands on the polished takeaway, that's a good hint. You might be hearing a three in a five disguise. And I think that that's not, so, that's not completely fair to say of you because I edit you to sound that way.

[00:55:46] Josiah: Yeah.

[00:55:46] That and, and a lot of it too is just like my marketing background.

[00:55:50] Cody: Sure. Yeah. And, and

[00:55:52] Josiah: it's, it's hard for me not to put that hat on just only because I know that like you have to package things in a certain way to get attention and I don't like that. No. But you know,

[00:56:04] Cody: and I will say too that, you know, starting this conversation, I chose to like edit out of my brain the fact that like, there's, I think, a ton of evidence.

[00:56:12] Regardless of what chat GPT said, I think there's a ton of evidence in the other direction that there's, I feel like people, if, if they talk to you in any situation, would immediately realize that you're a five. Like I think it's, you're less three energy than you were during a certain point in your life, but that point in your life, you made a huge impact on it and huge impression on a lot of people.

[00:56:30] So that's what they remember. I mean, even my parents, like they remember that version of you and then they meet you again or see you again like at my wedding or whatever. And they're like, that's not at all the Josiah remember. And I'm like, I know. You know, but it's a, it's an interesting kind of, I feel like there is like a, there is somewhat of a story arc there that is not being acknowledged and sometimes gets edited out.

[00:56:49] I've only stopped heavy editing our episodes recently. Mm-hmm. Where I kind of leave a lot more in there because I feel like it's more authentic to who we are. Yeah.

[00:56:57] Josiah: The other point that is really important to call out here is that mode where you know, that the period of time in my life where I was channeling more of what you might call three energy.

[00:57:09] Yeah. It burned me the fuck out. Yeah. I was so burned out.

[00:57:14] Cody: was so burned out. Mm. Yeah.

[00:57:14] Josiah: because I, I, I was trying to show up in the world. As someone that I am not. Yeah. And, and it, and it was a big, a big part of that was like I was doing all this internal work, but I still had so much to do.

[00:57:27] Cody: Mm.

[00:57:28] Josiah: And I wanted, I, I wanted the results.

[00:57:32] You know, I didn't wanna have to go through the really, really hard stuff Yeah. That I went through like in 2023 and Yeah. And since then. Mm-hmm. And, and so there was, there was a lot of me trying to more imitate the people in my life at that time, who I was looking towards as an example of success and how to actually show up in a way that creates the results that I thought that I want.

[00:57:56] but doing that was so draining. It was so draining. And, and that actually has been a huge, I mean, we've talked about this a lot, I think on, on the podcast. 

The Evolution of the Podcast

[00:58:07] Josiah: This was a huge aha moment for me when we launched the podcast because

[00:58:10] Everything about it felt energizing to me going into it. But I was afraid to put it out there because it was very me and all the stuff that I had done before was not me.

[00:58:22] Even though, like the last podcast that I started when I started, it was me just like interviewing experts.

[00:58:26] Cody: Me. Right. And,

[00:58:27] Josiah: And, and then I tried to like not put myself into that. Like I didn't want to even like I, I, I tried to just ask questions and like, not put too much of myself into the episode because I didn't feel like I had anything to contribute.

[00:58:38] And then, and then as I was trying to grow the podcast, people in this group gave me advice,

[00:58:44] Cody: like,

[00:58:45] Josiah: show up more as yourself, you know, do your own solo episodes and things like that. And I hated that. I, because I felt I didn't. I felt kind of like an imposter. Like I didn't, I didn't it wasn't really where my heart was at and it wasn't coming from a place of my own experience.

[00:58:58] It was coming from a place of all this theoretical knowledge that I had learned. Right.

[00:59:02] Cody: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:04] Josiah: And, but our, our Ingram Fire podcast was very much a raw coming straight from my experience. Yeah. And it felt very me, which was really energizing and also terrifying. Mm-hmm. But when we put it out there and that resonated and blew up like way more than anything else I'd ever done.

[00:59:22] Yeah. I was like, oh, this is what that is like. Yeah. You know, this is what it's like to actually show up as yourself. Mm-hmm. It's terrifying. And also, if you're doing it right, it's gonna be terrifying and it's going to, you know, resonate with the people who are like you. Yeah. And, that started this really the kind of the last leg of my journey, which was basically how I have approached the podcast in the last four years has been, okay, I'm gonna go work on myself and then I'm just gonna show up and talk about what I've been going through. You know,

[00:59:54] Cody: it is kind of how we started out So topical, talking about our stories of the lens through five, but I feel like we've kind of morphed into this more, like we've caught up with ourselves in life. So now we're like going through the journey.

[01:00:06] Oddly enough, it's also ended up being kind of how I am as a songwriter. A lot of my songs and especially songs that aren't even released yet are in, in that same vein where it's like, I feel like a lot of people from this community would, you know, get into the songs that I'm writing. 'cause it is, it's still gonna be obviously, at least in, on a subtle level from a five perspective.

[01:00:24] But it's just going through life, you know, and talking about what happens to us and how we deal with it and, and how we, how we face it. It is interesting to see statistically through just like analytics of just looking so like, you know, from the chat GBT perspective, how we've changed our language.

[01:00:41] Oh, about emotional, about emotions over the course. It's, it, it showed a story arc of like. We started out more analytical and we moved into more emotional but that's how it's also thought that you were a three because you, you, you would, you talked about it from a show, your performative, the, the context.

[01:00:59] The context that you would put in the language and, and vocabulary you would use sounded like a three. Whereas mine was like way more reserved and way more like unpolished and raw all over the place, which is way more like five energy. And so it's interesting that it picked that up, but I think that that's just like the language that, it's like learning different languages depending on the community you're in.

[01:01:18] Josiah: Right. Well, it's that, and also, I had somewhat ulterior motives when we started the podcast Because I had come from that, 

[01:01:25] Cody: you gotta

[01:01:26] Josiah: be seen as a guru kind of mentality. Sure. I wanted to subtly be seen as a guru

[01:01:33] Cody: when

[01:01:34] Josiah: started this podcast. Right. And so I was actually trying to coach you in the, in the early days.

[01:01:40] Yeah. Right. Trying to do it without you, like catching on

[01:01:43] Cody: I caught on.

[01:01:43] Josiah: I, I knew you did, but like, but not caught on before, like you

[01:01:48] Cody: Had change

[01:01:49] Josiah: before you got attached enough to the podcast to wanna keep doing it.

[01:01:52] Cody: Oh, I was like, I'm out. Right.

[01:01:55] Josiah: Right. And, and, and so that first season, especially, most of it I had already kind of planned in my head.

[01:02:01] Of like how I wanted to approach different topics and stuff like that.

[01:02:05] Cody: Sure. I do remember a lot more like, yeah, you came into it. I never had a clue what was happening, which tonight was a little bit me getting you back for that.

[01:02:12] Josiah: Yeah.

[01:02:12] Cody: And

[01:02:12] uh, 

[01:02:12] Josiah: I figured.

[01:02:14] Cody: and yeah, it was a lot more of like, I remember walking and you'd be like, you'll see. It's like it's all planned out. It's all laid out ahead of me, and I'm just like, I feel like I'm in a cult.

[01:02:23] Josiah: Yeah. Yeah. And, and if you'll, if you go back and listen through, you'll notice that like we, we kind of started running out of like, I, I kind of ran through most of my topics in the first season. Yeah. And then I'm like, well, shit, what do I do in the second season?

[01:02:36] Because A, if I remember

[01:02:38] Cody: remember that hesitation. Yeah.

[01:02:40] Josiah: Yeah. If I remember correctly, a, a lot of the first season was really like exploring like more distant past kind of stuff. Yeah. But, but the, the, the more we did the podcast, the more of that I ran out of, and the more I'm like, I don't know what to talk about. I can only talk about what I'm going through.

[01:02:56] And that feels very vulnerable and very unpolished. Sure. And, and so like, and I, I still struggle with, with this now it's, it's more about, I think it's, it's more about increasing my capacity to show up and not curate as a protection mechanism. Yeah. And because there's a, there's a topic of a conversation that I know we're gonna need to have soon about what's been going on with me this year.

[01:03:23] Yeah. And like, I just don't want to have it 'cause I don't feel like I have a neatly packaged answer for it. And I know that, that I don't think I'll ever have a neatly packaged answer for it. And that bothers me.

[01:03:36] Cody: Nor should you in in many ways. I think we just got done talking about how the less polished you are, the better it is a lot of the time.

[01:03:44] Josiah: but I think some of our best conversations have come from like those moments where we're not planning the,

[01:03:50] Cody: some of my favorite conversations are the afterthoughts episodes we were doing for a while because they were, so we would get there in our pajamas and sit in the floor or sit in chairs, lean back in, microphones in the dark basically, and talk. And that was like the most five thing. You could do for a podcast.

[01:04:07] Like, you don't have to see me. We could just talk in our headphones. We're all in our heads. You

[01:04:10] Josiah: We can get comfy with pillows and

[01:04:11] Cody: blankets. Get yeah. Get real cozy. And I just feel like that brought out a very different side of me than I do even here. This with lights in the face and like all the things, like, it feels, it feels almost like you should be polished in this situation.

[01:04:23] Like you should know what you're talking about. There is like a certain air about it that is hard to ignore sometimes. I feel like we've gotten better at this point, but Yeah. But it's different. It's different. You put us in a different situation, you know, the Friends of Five's episode is still one of my favorites because of how different it is and how absolutely ridiculous it is.

[01:04:40] Like, it's just so great. Yeah. Hopefully people liked it. But that's one of my favorites.

Balancing Personal and Professional Life

[01:04:44] Josiah: you know, another thing that I'm thinking about is I, there is a part of me at least that has idolized like a guru is because that's kind of how I grew up. Sure. My dad was a pastor.

[01:04:56] Cody: Oof. That's true.

[01:04:57] Josiah: and, and then even like after we left West Virginia and, you know, church hopped, it was like he was always doing small groups and he was like the guy who had the

[01:05:06] Cody: and you saw people coming to him for things

[01:05:09] Josiah: But, but more than that, I wanted acknowledgement from him. I wanted him to be proud of me.

[01:05:14] Yeah. And so there's something I think that was programmed in me at that young age of like, one way to get that acknowledgement is to be someone like him. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and that's why like in high school when our, when our youth pastor left the church because his father-in-law was the pastor in misappropriated funds

[01:05:35] Cody: Tale is old as Ty.

[01:05:39] Josiah: And, and we were left without a youth pastor. I stepped up. I did not, I should not have been in that position at all, and I did not know what I was doing, but I like idolized like, you know, Andy Stanley and Louis Giglio, and I had been going down to 7 22, driving every Tuesday from Nashville to Atlanta to do the you like in the, you know,

[01:05:59] Cody: I went too, but it was only an hour and a half drive for me. That's crazy. Yeah.

[01:06:02] Josiah: And, and it, it was because I also, I do love the process of. Just taking all of these big ideas and, and distilling them down into different models or different ways to communicate different, like approaches to, you know, to explore these different ideas and, and helping people understand things better.

[01:06:25] Like, I do enjoy that process and, and that's part of what has made me good at my job. But it's more about, it's more about what it does for me internally. It's not about being seen as someone who does that. Yeah. I actually, when, when, when people tell me that I'm good at that, I, I'm surprised, like, and uncomfortable actually.

[01:06:44] 'cause I'm like, I don't want you to think of me as good at that because I, I, I don't feel like I'm good at that and, but, but I enjoy doing it. And, and so there is that part of it of like, and I've always, because I've, I've struggled. I was so socially awkward and so I felt so poor at communicating for so much of my life.

[01:07:03] I really put a lot of work into. Building better communication skills because I needed it for survival, basically. Yeah. And, and, and that's another part of it too. And, and so, so yeah, there is that element of,

[01:07:19] there is some part of me probably that does want to be seen as a guru. I don't like that part.

[01:07:23] And it's more coming from those things I just talked about, it's not coming from like a real desire to be acknowledged in that way.

[01:07:29] Cody: Well, and I can completely understand that to some degree too. 'cause I mean, I went to seminary, obviously I had intended on being a leader in a church.

[01:07:35] Josiah: I, I went, I basically went to seminary.

[01:07:36] I was gonna be a youth

[01:07:37] Cody: And my problem was, and maybe you had a similar, we've never actually really talked about this, but my problem, and so I don't know if we share this or not, but I always felt like my issue was that my desire to be a good leader of people in a church was always overshadowed by my inability to control.

[01:07:55] Myself, I did not say politically correct things. I was not always kind with and, and, and with people's emotions. Yeah. So I don't feel like I made a good leader and I ruffled too many feathers. And a lot of people wanted to be fired at a lot of churches I worked at because I would piss them off and I wouldn't do things the, the quote unquote right way.

[01:08:18] And so I felt like that there was always that aspect of it for me too, that I felt like was, did I really want to do that or was I just, it was it just implanted in me because like I wanted to work up to a place where I felt like I was, I was the knowledgeable one that everybody wanted to come to, but I don't, if I actually got it, I would hate it.

[01:08:38] I do not want that. I don't want people coming to me. I hate when people come to me for things. I don't want people to have to come to me for

[01:08:44] Josiah: Yeah. And if I had actually gone down the ministry route, it probably would've been similar.

[01:08:49] Cody: You went to school for the same thing. Right? Right. Did you have that same experience, like when you were doing

[01:08:53] Josiah: like never a

[01:08:54] Cody: pastor thing or whatever?

[01:08:55] Josiah: I was terrible. And I never, I never had but I, but I also have this like performer mode that I developed, so it kind of would mask it a little bit. Mm-hmm. But I never was anywhere long enough for it to really matter. Okay. And, and honestly, that's been my job as well. Like, I've, I job hopped like, you know, every 18 to 24 months.

[01:09:16] Sure. And it was like, I come in. I would have all this energy because it's new and a challenge and, and I get to learn all this stuff. And then as soon as I felt like I started to learn it and started to get more competent, I would get really bored. Yeah. And then I would get destructive and then I would piss everybody off.

[01:09:32] Mm-hmm. And then I would leave before they could fire me.

[01:09:35] Cody: Yep. I've done very similar things, how millennial of us to change jobs every two years. But When you frame it that way about the performative aspects, I think it's not, then it becomes not fair to try to say, oh, well that also sounds like a three, because it is something that we can. For the things that we care about.

[01:09:56] Especially, we can kind of like muster that energy for short sprints. 'cause I do it with music, I've done it with, I do it with this podcast. Um, You know, I do it with my job all the time. I, and because my job is just driving all around town, talking to people, that's like my nightmare. And yet I may get through it and honestly don't mind it anymore.

[01:10:15] And so it's like people could say, oh, well that doesn't sound like five energy, you know? But it's, a lot of it is our, our circumstances and our environment and what we pick up.

[01:10:24] Josiah: to your point, like all of my jobs, this is what this is, this is, so, if you look at my career, you'd think, oh, he's probably a three because of the, you know,

[01:10:32] Cody: the trajectory, right?

[01:10:33] That bell curve. It's like, yeah. Straight up. Here's

[01:10:36] Josiah: what happened. I would come in, like I said, learn everything, and then I.

[01:10:44] Cody: would

[01:10:46] Josiah: Start building knowledge bases and systems so that people required less and less of me.

[01:10:52] Cody: Right. Work yourself out of a job every time. Yes. But

[01:10:55] Josiah: I found out that's how people advance in careers, because what ends up happening is if you do that well, then it creates space for them to ask you to do more things.

[01:11:05] But I didn't want that to happen. That's just what would end up happening. And then I would get annoyed because it's like, I don't want to do this, but no one else is going to do it well because no one gets it. Like everyone makes stupid decisions and I don't damn it. Okay, fine. I'll do it. And then like, you know, and then I get myself into these positions or it's like, oh, I just learned all this stuff over here.

[01:11:30] And I would go and say, okay, you know. Here's how you could do all these things and like, here's all these ideas, and like, go for it. And they're like, well, why don't you do it? I'm like, ha. You know? It's

[01:11:39] Cody: like,

[01:11:39] Josiah: it's, that's usually how it ends up happening. It's like, it's very much coming from this place of like, I wanna learn all this stuff, but I don't want anything to be required of me.

[01:11:48] And

[01:11:49] Cody: were just solving puzzles. Yes. And then they'd be like, wow, you could solve these puzzles over here on this table.

[01:11:54] Josiah: And, and then it would

[01:11:56] Cody: you're like, damn it, I don't want to, but it's a puzzle.

[01:11:59] Josiah: Right. And then I would, I would just get, you know, I'd get promoted or I would, um, I was very driven, like I said earlier by, by the idea of freedom, which to me is not having things required of me.

[01:12:10] It's like having the choices to choose my own trade offs. Right. Right.

[01:12:13] Cody: That's true. Yeah.

[01:12:14] Josiah: And and that's really what motivated me. I I, I, I didn't want to step into leadership roles. I, I, because I, when I got promoted to. The la the, the place that I was at where I got promoted to vp, I was actually disappointed because, because I, I was actively trying to like, stay under the radar

[01:12:39] Cody: Mm. And not

[01:12:41] Josiah: let people know how, how much potential that I had.

[01:12:45] Cody: Yeah.

[01:12:45] Josiah: Because I worked myself into a place where I'm like, okay, my threshold, my capacity of what I'm used to is like way more than this. And everything moves so slowly here. It gives me way more bandwidth to do stuff with the podcast. Sure.

[01:12:58] Cody: Yeah.

[01:12:58] Josiah: like, and, and like, you know, take it easy.

[01:13:00] And I'm like, okay, this is cool. Maybe I could do this

[01:13:03] Cody: have to be your life.

[01:13:04] Josiah: right? And my job hasn't, doesn't have to be my life. And then it was like, my boss quit and recommended me for the job. And then I'm like, well, here's the thing. I can either tell them to find someone else and have that unknown of coming in and like, you know, or I can try to do it because actually.

[01:13:24] There are some stuff, there are some things in this that I'm interested in because I've, I've been helping my boss do parts of his job because again, I come in, I'm like, oh, I learned all these systems and here's how we can do this

[01:13:34] Cody: right?

[01:13:34] Josiah: Why don't you let me, you know, take it over. And and it's more, it was more about kind of working my way out of having to do the work is' what I was trying to do.

[01:13:41] Cody: to do. Yeah. And,

[01:13:42] Josiah: And, and, and so I'm like, okay, well maybe this is a different way to do that, but it, that didn't work either because then I just ended up with way more work than I ever wanted. Yeah,

[01:13:52] Cody: Yeah, I solved this problem. You, me, and you handle it differently. You create systems, you give them to people. I create systems and I tell no one,

[01:14:00] Josiah: maybe that was my mistake.

[01:14:02] Cody: is your mistake. If you wanted to stay in the job you're in, you create systems to do your job for you and then you don't do anything and then no one knows that you're not doing it.

[01:14:11] Obviously I don't have necessarily that luxury in my particular job, but I do have systems that make my job easier and creates more time in my life and in my days and I don't tell anyone. Yeah. Like I just don't let 'em think I'm busy all the

[01:14:22] Josiah: time. Time. Al also, also it, there's a work avoidance piece of it because a lot of it was, it was, I don't, I don't enjoy the tedious parts of my job, so I'm going to kind of help out in these other areas that aren't my job because those are more interesting because there's new things that I've learned.

[01:14:41] Cody: But that puts you on people's radar.

[01:14:42] Josiah: puts me on people's radar. And then I become like

[01:14:44] Cody: because you look like you're hungry to like move up the

[01:14:46] Josiah: But I am not.

[01:14:47] Cody: And if you then you create systems that work and they're like, well, shit, maybe he should be moved up.

[01:14:52] Josiah: Or at least have the illusion that they work

[01:14:54] Cody: Yeah. Whatever for a time. That's all that matters. Yeah, they don't need to know. Well, and also like you've had many positions where it, a lot was required of you to show that you're doing things probably. And so it's like, well I've created all these systems and they're like, great, that's amazing.

[01:15:08] Now you can do this job. So yeah, it just definitely worked against you. 

Final Thoughts and Reflections

[01:15:32] Cody: But I think it's fun to address these things that sound on the exterior like a lot of three energy and actually are not, and it's actually not that you're a three masquerading as a five, but you're a five that for a long time masqueraded as a three and, but that benefited you because now you're in a unique position to uh, maybe help the rest of us. I'll

[01:15:36] Josiah: I'll do my best.

[01:15:36] Cody: best. 

[01:15:54] I've definitely said or done things most people would say a five would never say or do. It's when there were expectations of me where a five response wouldn't really work. There's still cultural expectations around what a woman should be like, and since aren't that many women who have fives as their type.

[01:16:13] Sometimes being myself as a five seems tricky. Like for most of my life I've had this image of being a wife and a mother and a coworker as ideally being more talkative or more bubbly and more emotional and caring. And so I've definitely said or done things that go against what a five would normally do just to fit in, like in social situations.

[01:16:34] My plan is to ask a lot of questions of people so I don't have to talk about myself. So I'll listen and look like I'm interested and work really hard at the conversation. And then I end up getting invited to things that I really don't want to go to because of the impression I've given, and I end up regretting it.

[01:16:49] And it's too hard for me to maintain those relationships. And so I end up ghosting people and I'm basically not being honest with other people or myself. So if someone told me they did not think I was really a five, I would get it because I might've been just faking them anyway. But all that being said, I think people can change over time.

[01:17:09] Even to a point, their Enneagram number changes. Maybe it changes more likely in a young person. I don't, I don't think I would've thought I was a five if I knew about the Enneagram when I was young. Now I'm 59 years old now, and I've had opportunities to try different jobs and be exposed to different ways of thinking, and I've raised children who each have their own personality, so I'm more able to reflect on myself and hopefully grow into being a healthy five rather than a fake other number.

[01:17:37]

[01:17:44] I realized I was a five around COVID of course, year, the year 2000, and had to research it, um, because compared to even the other type of, Even strength finders, that type of test, I felt like this knew me, which was, uh, even more eye, it was more comforting and more eye-opening to say like, Hey, I'm not, I'm not strange or weird or, or, you know, different.

[01:18:10] Like, this is how I am. And, um, and so for in the beginning I was able to just kinda re you know, take a look and see, okay, how, how can that, does that describe me? Um, and, you know, um, kinda work with that. But now I'm actually using that at work. I'm using it with others. So when, when, um. When I meet people and we get into a conversation, especially if they know their Enneagram number or we have a conversation, I will let them know like, this is how I best work, or this is how the best to, to be in a relationship with me.

[01:18:45] So I'm kinda sharing it with others so that they know more about myself. Um, it's really helped for my, um, planning of my days. So if I have a really packed, full day, uh, or, uh, lots of things going on at work the day, the day before, I'll look at it and I'll know, okay, this is where I'm gonna have to. Put all my energy.

[01:19:07] But then I also know that at night I'm gonna need some alone time to kind of decompress so I can help with my, um, like the ebbs and flows and to know that, um, you know, there are things that I'm gonna need if there's a big day. And also to plan for it is, is really the best. 

[01:19:37] Cody: Well, this has been fun.

[01:19:39] Josiah: This has, I enjoyed this.

[01:19:41] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:19:41] Cody: It was, I and I, I was happy to get back at you for, it was fun to be the person who knew where the conversation was going. Yeah. Hopefully I handled it. Okay. Let me know in the community if I was a good host this time.

[01:19:52] Josiah: you did great. And it was really, honestly, I was looking forward to it. 'cause I'm like, okay, finally, I don't have to do all the work.

[01:20:00] Cody: Damnit. I'm one of your systems.

[01:20:02] Josiah: yes. Alright,

[01:20:06] Cody: well we will maybe revisit this later. I don't know. That's it. Okay. Bye-Bye everybody.

[01:20:12] Josiah: Bye. The Enneagram five podcast lives

[01:20:14] Cody: it lives on we, I didn't ruin. I didn't break it.