[LIVE] Can Enneagram 5s be Expressive and Outgoing?

[00:00:00] Welcome to Enneagram Five Live

[00:00:00] Josiah: Hello and welcome to Enneagram five Live. Hey, what's up? Uh, yeah, so we used to call this After Hours. Uh, that was a stupid name, but we went with it for a couple of years. 

[00:00:16] Cody: And then we finally got our shit together. 

[00:00:19] Josiah: Yeah, and now we're, uh, we're just naming it Enneagram 5 Live. So the original goal with kind of doing live streams was to have, um, have a stream.

[00:00:29] just inside of our community that we host. Uh, and then we decided, Hey, yeah. And a big part of that too was to lower the stakes for us to get comfortable with live streaming. 

[00:00:41] Yeah. 

[00:00:41] Josiah: And, uh, and then the more comfortable we got with it, we were like, Hey, you know, we'd like to open up this conversation to a wider audience.

[00:00:48] So we started streaming across the socials and that's what we're doing right now. So, uh, if you're joining us, why don't you post a comment and just say hi. Let's see. Irene teaches says hello. Hello, Irene. Glad you're here. 


[00:01:09] Big Changes!
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[00:01:09] Josiah: So we're going to do a bit of a different format than we've done in the past. Heidi also says hello.

[00:01:17] Hello, Heidi. So we actually have an agenda and I just realized that I completely forgot to make like a slide that shows what the agenda is so we can see something visual. Yeah, that'd be fun. I, uh, I also can't share my screen right now without having to restart the browser because, you know, chrome. So, um, that is, so we're not going to do that, but I can tell you what the agenda is.

[00:01:43] We've got a couple of announcements, um, just kind of some shopkeeping stuff, some updates on what we're doing, uh, which is exciting. Then we'll do what we call red, yellow, green, uh, which is what we've done in after hours and every episode of after hours. And then we've, uh, we've come up with some new segments here.

[00:02:02] Um, the first one is current curiosities. So we're going to share something that we've started researching in the last couple of weeks, um, and whether it's worth continuing or worth dropping and, uh, invite you guys to participate in that. Um, and then we're going to, uh, talk about the myth that fives can't be expressive or outgoing.

[00:02:26] So we'll unpack that a bit. Then we'll play a little game of would you rather, and then the last segment is called growth versus comfort. And so we're, we'll share something that we are trying to get better at, even though our fiveness is fighting against that. So, um, all that to say. We are, uh, we'll start off with the announcements here, which is that if you haven't seen the posts that I made on Instagram or the emails I've sent out, um, I got laid off this month and, uh, I'm actually really excited about it because that means that I'm now going all in full time on Enneagram five.

[00:03:05] Um, this is something that we have been wanting to do. We've always had a much grander vision for this and every time we started to get some momentum. Um, ongoing, like doing stuff outside of the podcast, uh, life always got in the way. Usually our jobs, um, but now I don't have a job. So now this is my job and so I am, uh, doing this full time, which is really exciting.

[00:03:29] It's been really fun, uh, and with that, I launched a newsletter. So, uh, if you haven't seen that, if you haven't signed up for that yet, uh, there is a. It erased my thing that, okay, we're going to have to get, uh, our production production system worked out a bit here. Uh, if you go to Enneagram five. com slash newsletter, then you can sign up for that.

[00:03:57] And I'll be sending, I send it out every Saturday morning. Um, we, We focus on strategies that help you kind of get out of your head and actually enjoy life as a five. Um, so sign up for that. And then the other big announcement that we have is that we are making changes to this podcast. And so basically the way that we used to do is we had the Enneagram five podcast.

[00:04:22] Uh, that was, you know, the podcast you all know and love. And then we had our after hours podcast that was just for, um, the premium subscribers within the community. We've moved away from that premium subscriber model. And so we're no longer doing the after hours podcast and as part of that. And so that means that we are bringing in these live.

[00:04:43] Um, episodes into the, uh, the main podcast. So that's change number one. Um, change number two is we're getting rid of seasons. So we, uh, you know, the episodes, the way we've been doing them, um, are, they take a lot of work. They're highly produced, uh, which is a lot of fun, but also it's, it's hard. You know, we, it's hard to keep up with when we had other full time jobs.

[00:05:08] Um, and so we. So we started doing that in seasons so that we could kind of have a break between, we could batch stuff together. But we always felt like we, like we lost the momentum towards the end of the season in terms of if we were just getting like great conversation started with everyone in the community and online and, um, and then it kind of would die out in between seasons and then we missed everybody too.

[00:05:32] And so, uh, we are, we're, we're going to be doing from here on out week to week. In terms of, uh, episode releases on the podcast, but they'll look a little bit different. So we'll still do the, the format that you're used to, uh, right now we're planning probably once a month for those. And those will be the more exploratory, um, deep diving on a topic and, and just sort of unpacking what it's like to, uh, explore that.

[00:05:58] aspect of life as a five. Um, and then, uh, and then we'll also be doing these live episodes probably once a month and bringing those in. And then on a weekly basis, we'll be doing a more short form, uh, podcast. That's going to be. Um, mostly just me, I'll probably pull in some clips from some other conversations that we've had with, with Cody or with Sam and, um, and those will be focused more on, um, on growth.

[00:06:24] And so a lot of the feedback that we've gotten is, you know, with the main podcast, it's, uh, everyone has said like how much they it's helped them, um, feel like they're not alone, help them understand themselves better. But then the. Once you kind of really start to get to know yourself better, the next question is, okay, now how do I move forward?

[00:06:44] How do I grow? And so that is what this, these episodes are going to be focused on and I'll be sharing kind of more in depth on my journey over the last decade because the person that I was 10 years ago is orders of magnitude different than the person that I am today. Uh, and then I'll be sharing kind of the, Different strategies and, and tips, uh, that I've learned along the way to kind of help you avoid some of the pitfalls that I have, uh, I had to learn the hard way.

[00:07:13] So, those are all the announcements, lots of big changes, uh, even more stuff coming down the pike that, uh, we'll share in the next couple of months, but, uh, for now that is it, and I feel like I've been talking for like five minutes straight, so Cody, say something. Um, you, I guess you kind of have actually 

[00:07:30] Cody: for eight 

[00:07:31] Josiah: minutes.

[00:07:33] Um, 

[00:07:33] Cody: all right, let's move 


[00:07:34] Red, Yellow, Green Check-In
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[00:07:34] Josiah: on to the next segment then. Okay. Which is red, yellow, green Cody, you go first. 

[00:07:41] Cody: Um, I am, how are you feeling? I am yellow today. I been doing a lot. I've been in a month long, uh, thing that I do every year called Febby writers. You've heard me talk about it on the podcast. Have you been listening for any amount of time really?

[00:07:59] This year has been really, really great and also really, really hard. And, um, it's been, it's just exhausting when I'm also doing other things like getting geared up for You know these big podcast changes and um, you know, my daily job is also picking up work right now And we're picking up speed with things.

[00:08:19] So it's just been more stressful than then it and then then I would like for it to be and then of course today is was a particularly long day at work and just a lot a lot happened and all at once and As I'm sure we can all relate to I don't handle A lot of things coming at me all at once. Very well.

[00:08:40] And so, uh, yeah. I'm glad to be here. So I won't say I'm red, but uh, I think leading up to doing this tonight, I went from red to yellow. I'll say that. On the upswing. How 

[00:08:56] Josiah: about you? Um, yeah. I am green and I also just realized that I found my little banner that I made to subscribe to the news. We got to work on this 

[00:09:10] Cody: the aesthetic though, 

[00:09:12] Josiah: I know I know we've got a lot to work on in terms of branding That's definitely on the list.

[00:09:16] Yeah, I've Honestly, it has been A profound change for me. And I know that job transitions can be scary. This was a, that was not this for me. It's like, as soon as I found out that was going to be laid off, it was instant clarity. It was like, okay, I know exactly what I need to do. Um, I didn't even question it.

[00:09:40] And that was, that was so freeing and exciting. And, um, since then I've just kind of been on a rampage in terms of, um, tapping into creative energy and producing stuff. Um, I don't know, been doing a lot of stuff kind of behind the scenes that'll come out over the next couple of months. Um, and, and really just, well, for one thing, like, um, the baseline that I was operating at.

[00:10:09] just sort of general anxiety, uh, that was usually stemmed from my job. Uh, you know, it was usually between like seven and 10 maybe. Um, and, and now that's going down to like one or two, maybe. Yeah. Um, yeah. Uh, except for today, which we can talk about later. Um, but, but, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's been amazing.

[00:10:34] Like I've, I've been almost kind of rediscovering parts of myself and letting myself really just explore what it means to create. A life that is tailored to me and, and, and how I would structure life and, you know, obviously I can't remove all constraints, um, nor would I want to, um, cause you know, I have a family and, and, and there are things that I want to do, but just within those constraints, exploring what it looks like to wake up and not have.

[00:11:16] A job dictating where I spend my time and energy has been incredible. And, uh, and so I, yeah, it's, it's, I've just, I'm probably, uh, super green. I don't know, I don't know if there's another color that would, uh, accurately describe it, but yeah, I've been doing, been doing really well now. It hasn't, hasn't come without its, its ups and downs in terms of, um, emotional rollercoaster, which is something we'll get into later.

[00:11:41] But, uh, yeah, in, in general, yeah, I've been, I've been doing real well and I'm feeling good right now. That's cool. Yeah. 

[00:11:47] Cody: Next question. What color are you on the spiral dynamics scale then? We could go above green that way Anyway, I never remember what those are what the colors are. Yeah. Well, it depends on the model they change I've learned.

[00:12:02] Josiah: All right. Okay All right. 


[00:12:05] Current Curiosities
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[00:12:05] Josiah: So next segment is current curiosities, so Cody share with us Uh, something that you've recently started researching or something that's caught your attention, um, and, and tell us about that. And if anyone who is listening wants to share as well, drop in the comments, um, something that you've, you've been interested in lately as well.

[00:12:29] Yeah, so, um, 

[00:12:30] Cody: When you narrow it down to just this week, It gets really ridiculous because like there's there's a there's like there's there's mainstays, right? Like I'm always looking up things on like music engineering that I've been going really like really deep diving and like so much that I get lost in the weeds and I have to like reel myself back in and definitely think that's worth keeping You know, I've been more into chat GPT, which we both have been talking about that a lot and and just because of how I am and what I'm into it tends to be that I find myself like Lost and overwhelmed these days in, in, like, the general political landscape.

[00:13:11] So I find myself listening to too many things and deep diving on different topics and stuff way too much. And, uh, which used to be fun and now it's just making me sad and so I, I'm trying, I think that's something I'd like to drop. Uh, but, uh, but the big thing for this week, the main focus, here it is, this is the headliner.

[00:13:31] Um, I have had a re ignited Um, interest, I'll say, to keep it to like downplay it a little, um, in buying some Birkenstock clogs.

[00:13:49] So, and so I've been 

[00:13:52] Josiah: like, all the things I thought you would say that was not anywhere near. I know I've been ready for this 

[00:13:56] Cody: one all day. I've been ready to say it. I've been so excited because I knew you wouldn't know at all what I was talking about. But the reality of it is, is that I have gone, I've been like, nightly staying up reading.

[00:14:10] Should I go with suede or leather? How long does it take to break in suede versus leather? I don't really think I like the suede look. The leather looks way nicer and definitely adult. The suede looks like something I'd wear in high school. So this is my thought process during all of this. And so, and then I was like, but then there's the wide versus the narrow and then there's some, but then see.

[00:14:30] Some studies say that Birkenstocks are bad for people with flat feet. Cause it doesn't support arch support, you know, and like healthy muscle, uh, development. And so I started going way deep into this. And then yesterday I was like, yeah, I think this is a waste. I'm not going to do it. And then today I'm like, I think I'm going to get some tomorrow.

[00:14:49] So who even knows, honestly, who knows what I'm going to do? Um, I think that that was, uh, that's not something that I should need neither keep or drop. It was just. We all relate, right? Like we, we do these things. I couldn't help it. Um, I do that with now I do it. I spent a lot of my life not looking into things when I wanted to purchase them, music equipment things, because I didn't know better.

[00:15:13] I was young and stupid. If I, and the internet wasn't quite as developed when I was like. A teenager, as I feel like it is now, and is easier, easily accessible to find information. And I think that, um, I just didn't do it, and I made so many bad choices. Of course I learned from them, but it was expensive.

[00:15:29] Expensive mistakes. So now I go really deep, before I spend a single cent on every possible angle of something that I can learn about it. And that includes, apparently, Birkenstock clogs. Which, if anybody's curious, I decided to go with the dark leather pre oiled ones. And, and apparently there's like a, there's like a, there's a, there's a thing you can like, there's a hack that if you put really thick socks on and then dunk them in water and then wear the shoe, wear the shoes for a little while, you would think that'd be like gross for them, but apparently it softens the, the, the, the footbed to mold quicker and, uh, stretches the leather faster.

[00:16:08] So it like fits you better. So there you go. Wow. The more, you know, wow. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for that. Pre oiled. Pre oiled. You know, like you oil leather, and it's pre oiled, it comes already oiled. That's what that means. 

[00:16:28] Josiah: I, I gotta be honest. I don't even know what to say to that. Like. 

[00:16:32] Cody: Well, they're back in style.

[00:16:33] That's what got them back on my radar. You know, I loved them in high school and I had them forever until I wore them through a flood and then they fell apart. So. 

[00:16:42] Josiah: But I, yeah, I never had any, I never had any, I've looked, I will admit, I have looked at them just in terms of, you know, it's summertime and you're trying to figure out, like, I don't really want to wear hot shoes all the time.

[00:16:56] Cody: They're not that hot though. 

[00:16:57] Josiah: Yeah. Well, no, that's what I'm saying is like looking at alternatives of what I could wear on my feet during the summer and, and it has, it has entered. That matrix of you know buying decisions, but and see I'm a self preservation 

[00:17:13] Cody: Yeah, and I'm a self preservation five. So like it's yeah, who gives a shit what it looks like comfort and Convenience you slide your foot in and it has room for my wide ass foot And I'm good to go.

[00:17:27] Josiah: Michael says that he's jealous because he only has, uh, three years during the year that he could wear those. Or three months during the year. Yeah, 

[00:17:35] Cody: I disagree. I think you can wear them all the time. Unless you're in like 15 feet of snow. I guess that's possible, I guess. If you live in a cold place, it's probably harder to wear them.

[00:17:44] But yeah, here it's like pretty much mild always. It's like in between. It never really gets that cold or hot, so. It's perfect. 

[00:17:54] Josiah: What about you? So my, my current curiosity is, uh, not that, um, yeah, I mean, obviously like we, we talked about there, uh, I'm into all kinds of weird stuff, but those are kind of just general ongoing things like, you know, UFOs and, uh, like exotic physics theories and all that kind of stuff.

[00:18:19] Um. Yeah. Um. I, because I've been on this kick of Writing the newsletter and, and all that. I've, I've, I've gone down the internet marketing rabbit hole once again. I, I go through these phases where I'm like ramping up in the past, you know, to, to work on, on trying to, to grow the show. Um, I've gone through these phases of researching this stuff and, and so I have like different sort of notion.

[00:18:48] Documents that I've created at different phases. Yeah. Um, and uh, so it's, it's kind of a mess in that regard, but I've, I've definitely, um, been researching stuff like how to, how to grow a newsletter. Um, I've, I've been deep diving on like running Facebook ads, which I don't know if I want to do, but I just want to know, I, I feel like I need to know.

[00:19:09] enough about them to make the decision of whether or not I want to run them. You know what I mean? Like, um, so there's been a lot of those kinds of, um, those kinds of research trails where I'm, I'm doing a lot of exploratory searching on, okay, what, what are the, I'm casting a wide net and trying to figure out like, what should I be focused on right now?

[00:19:30] Yeah. Um, and, uh, while I'm like continuing to. To create content. Um, yeah, so that's been my, my obsession. Like I've been falling asleep at night, like planning out marketing campaigns and content for the newsletter. Like as I'm trying to fall asleep, I can't shut my brain off. Yeah. 

[00:19:52] Cody: Yeah. I feel that I, I ended up doing that when I get like really into, which I'm going to be doing soon, getting into like the cycle of releasing new music.

[00:19:59] And I'm wanting to do that on a more regular basis. So like, obviously there's a lot of marketing. In this, so I completely relate to that, that, uh, interest for sure. Cause it, it can so quickly become an obsession and it's, it's an end. It's a never ending thing. 

[00:20:14] Josiah: Yep. All right. Next segment. 


[00:20:18] Debunking the Myth: Fives Can't Be Expressive
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[00:20:18] Josiah: Let's talk about whether or not, um, fives can be expressive.

[00:20:23] We're outgoing. I think we're, I think we're debunking that myth that we can't be just by showing up here. Yeah, right now, right now. And the reason why, the reason why I picked this, there's a story behind it. Oh God, here we go. We're going to air, we're going to spill some tea, huh? Bring the tea today. I mean, yeah, I'm not going to call out anyone directly, but I, I created a video.

[00:20:45] A couple of weeks ago, just announcing that I got laid off and that I was excited about it because it means I'm going to be a full time content creator and then I'm launching the newsletter and all that. And I Which admittedly 

[00:20:57] Cody: sounds terrible for a five. Like, 

[00:21:00] Josiah: being a content creator, 

[00:21:01] Cody: I mean, I don't know, is anybody here a content creator?

[00:21:03] If 

[00:21:04] Josiah: you don't, if you don't have all of the context, like, of my background, and how I got to where I am, like, I get that. I get that. But I made, I made the I'll call it a mistake of posting the video in a group on a certain social platform that shall not be named. And, uh, just got a lot of frankly dumb comments.

[00:21:33] Cody: Yeah. Here's a clue. It's the, it's the platform that everybody always trolls and comments. It's just what it's become. 

[00:21:42] Josiah: Um, so basically. Everyone started or all these like, it wasn't everyone, it's like a small group of people, but they just started piling on of like saying that I'm not a five, um, like there's no way I could be a five, right.

[00:21:57] And it, and you know, cause like, I'm, I'm expressive and I am, you know, I'm, I'm communicating well, which I'm having a hard time doing right now and. And I tried to like, I tried to, I, I made the mistake of taking the bait. That wasn't my mistake. Um, normally I just ignore all that stuff, but there was a comment and I just like responded, LOL, and which was a bad idea.

[00:22:25] And then like, they went off on this whole thing and then I just started like poking holes in their argument, but it just, there was no winning. And, and, and it was, it was. Sucking my life energy. 

[00:22:38] Yeah. And 

[00:22:39] Josiah: so I didn't, I didn't keep up with, but the basic argument was that, um, I didn't, I didn't exude the energy of a five and that a five show up in the way.

[00:22:50] Yeah, because, and the five would never show up in the way that I was showing up and, and be expressive and, and, and all of that and. Uh, what they didn't know is like, you know, my years of performing on stage, um, like my, all of my career, like working really hard to get good at communicating. Cause I had to, for my career, like I took improv classes and I like to have done like all these presentations that had to do, you know.

[00:23:15] Talk. I had to figure out how to go from talking from like an engineer to like a CEO to like a support rep, like that was my job and communicating like complex topics in a simple way and just all of the stuff that I've been doing for years and years and years, plus lots of coaching, uh, that I've paid for and, and therapy and, you know, being married to a four, uh, who wants to talk about feelings a lot.

[00:23:37] And it's just like all of this stuff that, uh, they didn't see. And they also didn't see me. Sitting in my car for 20 minutes just trying to ramp myself up to get to the point where I could turn on the camera. Like yeah, I didn't see any that, that and the fact that like, it was all very, very heavily edited.

[00:23:55] 'cause it's just like a little, yeah, that's what I say. Don't they know these things? Yeah. Like, come on. Right. And you know, I took me like 20 minutes to, to get out a 92nd clip. Like . There's, you know, like, and they didn't see any of that. They just like made this really, um, really. Uh, snap judgment on who I am.

[00:24:17] Um, and, but I think that this, this happens, this can happen with fives where as we start to grow, as we start to integrate, um, and we, we start to learn how to, you know, maybe show up a little bit more like an eight or how to kind of leverage some of that seven energy to, uh, to help us be kind of more, uh, out there and a little more energetic and, um, like you, you know, We don't like, we don't come across as a stereotypical five.

[00:24:46] Like I don't come across as a stereotypical, a stereotypical five. A lot of times when I am, you know, in, in some sort of like performance role, uh, whether it's in my job or whether it's, you know, online and. And so in some regards, like I kind of take it as a compliment that they don't think I'm a five. Um, even though I'm just annoyed by their arguments, uh, cause I think they're dumb, the arguments, not them.

[00:25:11] I'm making no judgment on these people. Um, but, but, uh, all that to say that like, I. I think it's really important that we debunk this myth that fives can't be expressive or outgoing because when we are very passionate about something or when we have developed a confidence in something through, you know, learning and doing over a long period of time, like we can show up differently than how people might expect.

[00:25:41] That doesn't mean we're not going to go home and like, you know, become a hermit and, and, and not want to talk to anyone for a day, which is. It happens to me, uh, quite a bit, um, but, but, but I can show up and I know that you can too, if you want to share about that. 

[00:25:58] Cody: Yeah. Well, and it's like two, you got to think too, like the, all these people that consider themselves Enneagram experts and they all have their own podcast and they all have their own shows and whatever.

[00:26:07] But they, how often do they portray fives as only the unhealthy version? Like, it's like everything that we've ever heard about fives always sounds so sad and so dark and so lonely. And so, and like, we're, we all are, I, I'd say I would go as far as say, I'm sure all fives are there sometimes. Like we, we, we get there easier maybe than some other types.

[00:26:27] Um, but we can become, we can have an existential crisis in an afternoon. You know, it's like, it's not hard. Um, but. I, yeah, I agree. I think that, um, I've experienced more growth in the last four years than probably the last 20 years before that. Like it was, it's been so fast and it, and it takes something that I think that people forget about fives is how, how, even though we live in our heads so much, I feel like fives tend to be.

[00:27:00] Most of the time, at least in my experience with fives, my other friends that I've had their fives, like a lot of times we, we have the ability because we're so observational that we can turn that in on ourselves if we ever learn how to do that and turn it in ourselves, which I'm, we all, we all probably strive to do.

[00:27:15] It makes sense. We want to be in tune with ourselves and , whether it's a control thing or whatever. And I think that, um. Turning that one, that whole, that ability, that, that, um, skill that we have that comes natural to us to observe and tear things apart and figure out puzzles and, you know, and of course I'm stereotyping, but like That's at least how I am and that I turn that in on myself and And it's hard to look away after that like you can't I can't not look at myself I can't not be constantly aware of like what's going on internally, and why did I say that wow?

[00:27:50] I reacted so hard to that way more than I felt like I should what made that happen and so then I just start digging and digging and digging and like You know, it's like, it's easy for me to say sometimes, too, that it's like I do the work of therapy without the therapist there, like, in some ways I do do that, and I think we can all probably relate to that a little bit, I still very much think that I should go back to therapy, um, because I think actually therapy could be maybe more And maybe we find success in therapy if we really fully commit faster than some others because of that.

[00:28:21] Like we're already on board. Like, yeah, I'm digging, let's go, you know? And I think that that's something that I've definitely experienced over the last few years. And it's just like, I'm doing now what I never most I spent most of my life thinking I would never be able to do or feel like. I don't know if I'm, I don't know how good I am at it, but I'm definitely, like, feeling more natural at it, and I never thought that that's something that I would feel, um, so I think it, yeah, I think it's easy, like, I find, I meet people all the time where I tell them I'm a five, and they, if they, you know, we talk with Enneagram, you know, and they're like, wow, I never would have thought you were a five.

[00:28:49] Well, you don't really know me like I'm in performance mode right now, just talking, you know, and that's what I did all day today for work. So, yeah, 

[00:28:55] Josiah: yeah, and we've, and we've talked so much like on the podcast too. We've, we've, we've had to get comfortable with expressing ourselves and, uh, and at first it.

[00:29:07] Like we, we developed hacks that, uh, like for instance, our first episode, when we recorded, we told ourselves, you know, we don't ever have to air this. And so it was really easy, you know, and we can just kind of be there. Yeah, I know. It was, it was, it was a, a thinly veiled lie. Yeah. Um, I think. Um, I, you know, if we could kind of, um, like to put a bow on this, I would say the, what I would ask these people to do is to get curious about, let's, let's assume for a second that, I mean, I know I'm a five, but let's assume for a second that I could 100 percent prove to them that I'm a five, like, what would that actually mean to them?

[00:29:51] Right? Yeah. What, what is it within them that has a strong reaction to seeing someone like me or, or another five? Who is, who is. Who is. You know, showing up in the world in a way different than what they think is possible for them. What does that, what does that mean to them? Because I get curious about that because in my experience, cause I mean, if you knew me 10 years ago, there would be no question that I was a five.

[00:30:12] I mean, Cody, you, you knew me 10 years ago. There was no question that I was like, there was, I was very, very different. And, uh, and I think that when you, when you are, when, when you come. Into contact with someone who contradicts the stories that you're telling yourself about what's possible for you. Um, There's a, there's a defense mechanism that's built in that makes you want to reject that immediately.

[00:30:38] And because what that means is that if that's true, if that, you know, through, through self work that I could be different or, you know, or, or be more of who I am, then that removes my excuses to stay where I am. And And so I think that that's where a lot of this comes from, that sort of knee jerk reaction is that they, they see people like us who are fives, who can show up in the world differently.

[00:31:09] Maybe it's a way that they want to show up, but they don't want to admit it to themselves that they want to show up that way. Or maybe they think it's not possible for them. And then they see other people showing up that way who are like them, and it makes them question. You know, all of the stories they tell ourselves about why it's not possible, which means that then, then they don't have excuse.

[00:31:27] It's like they're responsible for their own growth for, for their own journey. Um, and I think that that's where a lot of this is coming from. 

[00:31:34] Cody: Yeah. I mean, it doesn't really matter what you say. Like you said in the beginning, it's always been about, um, it's always been about just ego. People think they know, you know, and then put the worst stereotypes on us.


[00:31:53] Would You Rather?
---

[00:31:53] Josiah: Alright, so is it time for, would you rather? I think so. Yeah. Let's do it. Alright. I'm going to ask this question and you guys put in the chat to what your response is. Would you rather have unlimited knowledge, but no one to share it with or deep relationships, but struggle to learn new things? Hit the comments.

[00:32:23] Which one? Cody, you can think about it for a second. 

[00:32:27] Cody: I think I already know. Um, Do you know? Yeah, because I, I think that it's the first one. I don't know, sorry. I think that I've lived the first one a lot in my life. Not the unlimited knowledge part, but like, having so much knowledge about something no one cares about kind of feels like having a lot of knowledge that you can't talk to anybody about with.

[00:32:49] Um, so I'm going to go with the deep relationships. I'd rather do that one because, um, knowledge ain't everything. 

[00:33:03] Josiah: Yeah. Uh, Heidi says, unlimited knowledge. I'm a bad person. 

[00:33:09] Cody: I mean, I get it, no judgment from me. Not 

[00:33:10] Josiah: at all. No. I mean, this, this was one where, um, I had to sit with this for a little bit, uh, because You know, I, I'm, I'm with you.

[00:33:21] I've, I've been in that space where it was just, it was a quest for knowledge, but I had no meaningful connection in my life. Yeah. And, and so the knowledge didn't really do much for me. Um, and And at the same time, like I, uh, you know, we, at our cores as five, just love that quest for knowledge and truth and learning new things.

[00:33:50] And I, that's so core to who we are that this it's, it's a hard, it's a hard one for me. I would, I would choose the deep relationships. Um, partially because I've already learned a lot, so like I could, I could like become satisfied with that. Um, but also because to your point, like if you don't have anyone to share it with, uh, you know, it, it, it, it isn't nearly as valuable.

[00:34:16] Um, and, and so, um, you know, on the flip side, Michael says unlimited knowledge. Cause I don't think I, uh, I don't think I'd be truly able to connect deeply if I couldn't learn new things. Yeah, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought about that. 

[00:34:36] Cody: Oh, that's a whole other conversation. That's true. I get that, actually.

[00:34:43] Hmm. 

[00:34:44] Josiah: Let's, well, let me think about this for a second. Yeah. Because I, I would, Yeah, so what, what, what that would, what that would require is to find other ways to connect outside of our default. Um, because that's how we tend to connect as fives is through like a shared appreciation of certain types of knowledge, right?

[00:35:11] Um, and so it would require us to develop other, other ways to connect, um, which is not impossible. Like I've, I've definitely learned to do that, but also it, it would, it, it, there would, there would be a part of me that would be really sad. Yeah, in that way. 

[00:35:29] Cody: I think, too, just to like challenge that, that, that notion a little bit, like push back on it a little, I think that, um, part of, I feel like our collective downfall in conversation is how easily we can revert, especially in an anxious situation, like at least that's what I can say for me.

[00:35:47] Revert back to those, those pieces of knowledge to share, um, And as like a defensive, like a defense mechanism, because like small talk is forever terrifying. And, um, and, and, uh, but, and, and I think it's not, it doesn't come necessarily very natural to, I'd say the average five to, um, pick up and try to learn.

[00:36:10] And adapt the skills of like what meaningful connection looks like which takes both sides and learning how to like You know listen and absorb other people's information and be able to like because like I have a friend We have a friend who is an expert At saying, you say anything, anything at all, and he goes, that's interesting, let's dig into that, and five hours is gone, and he has, he has uncovered every possible nugget of information about that thing about you and everything else, right?

[00:36:42] He knows things about my mom I didn't know. And because he was there two days before our wedding and got to spend some time with my parents at their house and You know he got to know things and with from them He got things out of them that I've never gotten out of them in my entire life And so I think that there's a level and of course you can go too far that direction too, right?

[00:37:03] And it still is to kind of become self self serving and I think that for for me at least it's it's it's a constant ever growing challenge, ever ongoing challenge, hopefully ever growing, um, that, uh, that I'm trying to adapt to being able to get into a conversation and not be afraid to just sit in that silence or sit in that space of like, we're both vulnerable and maybe I don't have anything to talk about with you.

[00:37:27] Like what happens when I run out of something to talk about? And that's a, that's a subconscious thought I have all the time. Like what, you know, I, I, with my job today, I had a supplier in town and they were riding with me in the car all day long. A stranger I've never met in a small space. For eight hours like six hours seeing accounts over and over again, right?

[00:37:48] That's a terrifying thing for a five and it doesn't really bother me anymore Because what I've learned is you say one two things and then you just let it go and they always they also were anxious about The situation so they start just spilling things. So then I'm like, oh, that's cool. Where'd you learn that?

[00:38:01] You know, and so I've learned Through my job in many ways to I've learned how to adapt to that situation and not feel like I have to be armed with all this information going into a conversation and I found more meaningful conversation or more meaningful connection with people, um, by not having. All the answers to something

[00:38:22] So that's, that's how, that's the only way I would push back on that. But I, I do, I, I respect the, the, the viewpoint for sure. I get that. And that's definitely like a knee jerk reaction for a five, I think. 'cause that's definitely how I would feel when I first read the question, I was like, uh, that's kind of how I thought about it too.

[00:38:38] Josiah: Yeah. You, um, I can't remember if I've shared this in a past episode or not. Um, but Amy reminded me of this the other day. So when we were, we just started hanging out before we officially started dating, we were, we were hanging out talking like every day for like a month. And, uh, and then I asked her out on a date and it was like, I think it was like a Friday or Saturday.

[00:39:01] I asked her out on the date to go out on the next Friday. So like. A week away, and she said yes, and then I didn't talk to her for the whole week. Look, I didn't send any texts. Like I just, to her, it looked like I just completely ghosted her. And she's like, what is going on? Um, and it was because I was so afraid of not having stuff to talk about when we went on our date.

[00:39:27] Cody: That I wanted it to build up.

[00:39:32] Oh my God, that's so good. Yeah, that's a I don't know if you've ever talked about that, but that's good. I like that. That's yeah, for sure. And, 

[00:39:40] Josiah: uh, and, and, and I, I don't mind. So I'm with you. Like I, there's always that, um, that anxiety of, am I going to have stuff to talk about? And, um, one of the things too, that I've, I've learned is that, um, we do have a superpower in that when we kind of remove that anxiety, we're intensely curious people.

[00:40:05] And so as long as you can stay curious, like. And, and, and I think that that's what our friend that you mentioned, um, is really good at is, is that when you stay in that curious state, um, you'll, you'll, you'll just like questions to unpack things will just come to you. Um, and, and in that it's like, there's a kind of back to what Michael was talking about here.

[00:40:32] Um, you don't have to share information to connect, then you're going through like a co process of, of self discovery, um, in the moment. And you're connecting in that way, which, which can be like a, a much deeper form of connection, um, when you're staying present and curious in that. And, um, and so, yeah, that's what I've learned.

[00:40:55] Am I an expert at it? Um, but I, I'm way, way better than I, when I was, uh, you know, 5 10 years ago for sure. 

[00:41:05] Cody: Yeah, and I also like, um, the Irene's, uh, comment here. I agree with you on that. I think there is a Well, you have to say what it is, because Oh, right. Some people listen to this. Oh, right. Right. You are absolutely right.

[00:41:20] This is also going to be audio. Uh, so it says, I definitely think that I could connect with someone over something feelings based, but if I couldn't bring knowledge to the equation, I feel like I was holding back a part of myself. I agree with that to some degree, because like, I I don't necessarily feel the equivalent connection the other person would feel if I was being that way.

[00:41:42] Also, too, I just want to push back on my own point and say that our friend does it and he does it so well. It is nine times out of ten, just thinking about it makes me tired. Like, I get so exhausted and drained in those conversations sometimes. And like, and I'll sit at his house until like two in the morning talking with him and it's great.

[00:42:02] And I leave, sometimes I leave like energized, like that was a really great time. And then I leave going, telling myself it was a great time. But I am so I don't want to talk for days And so to think about being that way to that level with anyone is probably unrealistic I'm never going to be that way, right?

[00:42:21] I can get the conversation going but like I also am a hundred percent guilty of always finding ways to steer the conversation to where I know something that I'm passionate about and I want to talk about that and I feel like a lot of That is less these days because I feel like I know everything about something and more because I just want to share that passion with Somebody else.

[00:42:39] Yeah, you know and that's That's my way of connecting and so I feel like kind of speaking to what you're saying there I mean, I feel like that's that's kind of my version of it You know I think what it is is it's like we want to share that passion we want to go that deep with somebody and them be Just as excited about it as we are or we're also testing them to see if they are and if they're not then maybe we Won't connect that far and you're gonna go in this box, you know And so I think that's definitely part of it, too 

[00:43:05] Josiah: That's why would you rather is our fun because I don't want either of these things, right?

[00:43:09] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. 

[00:43:11] Cody: Yeah. It's always like, do you want this one or this one? Neither. 

[00:43:17] Josiah: Um, all right. So before we jump into this last segment, I, Just kind of for my, my own sort of, uh, my own sort of seeking of knowledge and truth, I would love for if you've, if you listen to past episodes, um, or if not, if this is your first time listening to us, if you enjoy this format, um, because I, I, we really want that feedback because we're kind of doing this in real time, testing stuff.

[00:43:42] and experimenting and seeing what we enjoy, seeing what you guys enjoy. Um, so any and all feedback is very welcome. So just pop a comment in, let us know if, uh, if you like, like this format for an episode, we're not, like I said, we're not going to do every episode like this, but our live ones, we'll have, um, we'll probably have some sort of structure like this with different segments.

[00:44:03] Um, and we might swap some out and we might keep some of the same. Uh, so any feedback there is appreciated. So thank you very much. Yeah. 


[00:44:10] Growth vs. Comfort
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[00:44:10] Josiah: All right, Cody, last segment here is, uh, growth versus comfort, which is share something that you're trying to get better at, even though your five instincts fight against it.

[00:44:28] Cody: I think because I already was thinking about this point before we got here, because I can see him on my screen, um, I kind of already delved into it a little bit in pieces. I think that, um, one thing that I'm Trying really hard to be good at, or get better at, is, um, Learning how to feel my emotions fully in the moment, And feel them with other people.

[00:44:53] Which is something that I don't think, You know, we were talking about all this growth four years ago, In the last four years, Four years ago, there was no way I could even, I couldn't even, I comprehend doing this. I wouldn't even know what it looks like, you know? Um, when we started this podcast, I did not know how to feel feelings.

[00:45:12] I was, I was fairly drunk every episode. Like, just to be able to get to that place where I could talk. And so, uh, you know, doing, it was such a challenge. And I just couldn't think about it. And so it was like, it was like this far off distant thing. And I didn't even want to do it really, you know? It's like I wasn't in that place.

[00:45:31] And so the more I've. I've grown the more I've done some, some chunks of time here and there where I've had, um, you know, some, some good therapy sessions and just, and obviously like being in a, you know, committed longterm relationship where you're, you know, existing with another human being who is insanely empathetic and, um, you know, it's just full a hundred percent empath.

[00:45:53] And so it's in learning how to validate other people's feelings constantly. And, and cause I've got this. I've gotten to this place where, um, I, it's, it's, I don't know, it's, it's, I've gotten to this place where I feel like I can By, by constantly, I don't ever want to invalidate anybody else's feelings, right?

[00:46:17] Like, that's, that's where I think that we oftentimes go wrong in conversation, just humans in general, is that we want to invalidate how somebody else feels, and it's like, how they feel is not about us. It's not about anything. It's just, it's their deal, like, and they're allowed to feel it, and you know, if I played a part in those feelings, and they're bad, then I want to figure out how to, you know, talk about it, and, and not fix it, you know, as a five.

[00:46:40] And so, but constantly doing that. over the last, you know, five years ish, um, and really trying to be better at it, um, I think has caused me to again, look inward and go, okay, well, what about my feelings? Can I validate my own feelings? Can I, can I start feeling them fully? Because I've never been the person, I've never been the type of guy who thought that guys shouldn't have feelings.

[00:47:04] That's the weird part. Like, sure, it's like ingrained in me, right? But it's, it's not, It's ingrained in me because like my dad never really showed emotion when I was a kid and I'm sure his dad didn't either I'm sure and it was just a cultural thing societal. And and so I think that that was ingrained in me accidentally and and and they probably weren't even really aware of it because they also like My parents, um, to some degree, I guess, are all about feelings.

[00:47:32] They, they also have grown a lot in this regard, so I feel like it's kind of been a family unit growth. Um, but, uh, but I've started to, I, I, what I'm challenging myself to be, to do and to focus on is, uh, is allowing space for my own feelings and then regardless of Who the other person is being willing to share or feel those feelings with them, right?

[00:47:56] Like that's that's the hardest part like I think that's the key for me because it's one thing to be able to you know like See something in a movie or a TV show or something that really strikes a chord within you and then feel those feelings Right and then explore those feelings because that's what you know film cinema is supposed to do it's supposed to evoke feelings and make us look inward and feel those things and and and and and I appreciate that lived experience, and I think that that's something that, um, I've always stopped myself from doing and trying to hide it or trying to, you know, not cry or not do those things.

[00:48:29] And I've never been the type of guy who thought that guys shouldn't cry or anything like that, so it's weird that I've always been like, why don't I want to do these things? And so, I think that's something that I've been trying to do. Definitely a lot more and let me let myself be vulnerable. I think is really the key there and And not hold it to other people to have to reciprocate that or feel that to like Because I can easily also make excuses and say well, you know What if they're not like that deep of a friend or maybe I don't really have friends I can share that With part of myself with or you know what if they leave or whatever and it's like at the end of the day just like Not invalidating other people's feelings.

[00:49:02] I shouldn't invalidate my own feelings by making excuses for other people. You know, it doesn't matter It's not about them. It's about me and so Yeah. That's where I'm at. 

[00:49:13] Josiah: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Mine is, mine is similar. I am, um, I've, I've been exploring, you know, one of my, one of my fears going into the season of my life was, um, volatility and, and how to continue to move forward when I feel that volatility and specifically emotional volatility.

[00:49:43] Um, and because when I was, when I had a steady job, I could have hard weeks, but that didn't affect my paycheck, you know, like, um, and I could talk to my, you know, I had a really good relationship with my boss and, and so I, we could talk about it and like, you would understand and, um, and now it's, you know, there was, there's a fear coming into this of, well, when I have a particularly volatile week.

[00:50:11] And I also need to get stuff done that, you know, that is income that is, you know, my income is dependent on how am I supposed to do that? And, um, and so I, I've just, I've been practicing a lot. Um, let it, letting myself feel things. Yes. But also, um, letting myself in those, in those moments, stay curious because One thing that I've, you know, I, I've experienced like, so like last week I experienced a lot of, um, emotional flooding, emotional overwhelm, um, Tuesday and Wednesday were just completely wrecked for me.

[00:50:55] Um, and, and Monday too, cause Monday I was traveling back from seeing my parents and, and Tuesday I, Um, I found, and it was like, I, it was like, I started the week and then I, I planned out the week. I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna get so much done this week. And here's everything, you know, all this stuff I want to do.

[00:51:11] And, uh, and then Tuesday I found out some news that was, um, very emotionally charged for me. And, um, and it was, I was overwhelmed emotionally. And then Wednesday, uh, had a Um, a conversation that triggered a flashback to a very traumatic memory for me, um, and that I didn't realize that I hadn't processed through.

[00:51:40] And so like, I felt it in my body as I was reliving and remembering details of how I felt. And it was like. It was very, very overwhelming. And, um, in the past, what would happen was I would be so uncomfortable with that, that I would retreat and disengage and, um, and not let myself feel those things. Yes.

[00:52:02] But also, um, like not. Not like avoid processing through them so that then I would go and try to find things that would help me avoid that stuff and then and then I would shame myself for for doing that and then I would just go into this sort of shame anxiety spiral and And that's something I've been working on for a while, but it's it's I've learned to trust myself more and and last week was a great example of where I could Uh, you know, I, I trusted myself and I showed up for myself and that went like Tuesday, Wednesday, I just let myself like be and.

[00:52:47] As much as I could feel that and, and let it kind of move through my body. And, and normally like that would have just like completely wrecked my whole week. And then it was like, I, I, I let it work its way through me on Tuesday and Wednesday. And rather than like shaming myself for not getting all the stuff on my to do list done from the first three days of the week, I sat down and I said, okay, I have two days left.

[00:53:09] I have everything that I set out that I wanted to do. It's okay if I don't get it all done, but what I can do is. You know, maximize these next two days to make as much progress as I can. And then, and then be satisfied with that, you know, be satisfied that like I showed up and I did the best that I could.

[00:53:26] And, and even just saying that in the past has been, there's been this voice. It's like, that's just an excuse to not get like, to not make progress on something. Right. Um, but instead, uh, it really was like the best that I could do that week. A lot, you know, some things happened that was hard. And, and I, I, I would, I would use.

[00:53:46] Um, excuse of getting stuff done to also avoid processing these things. Um, and so I, I chose to prioritize my own mental and emotional health in the first half of the week. And, and that actually set me up to where Thursday, Friday, I was like insanely productive and I, and I did get most of the stuff done that I wanted to get done last week.

[00:54:08] Um, but that would not have happened if I hadn't, uh, if I hadn't, Sort of worked past those initial five instincts to retreat and and then let myself process through those things. 

[00:54:26] Cody: Yeah, that's great. You see, Michael says, try this affirmation on. Taking care of myself is the most productive thing I can do today.

[00:54:37] I'm, you know what, I love those days. Yeah. I've learned to not have, I don't make excuses for days where I do nothing. And I, because I, especially when I know I need it. You know, it's just like, you just, I can take a, I can take a quick, you know, temperature of how I'm feeling, you know, emotionally and go, nah, I don't have the emotion for this right now.

[00:54:58] Can't do it. 

[00:54:58] Josiah: Yeah. Yeah. And I think one thing that I'm learning kind of in real time is is that the just saying that before Taking care of myself is the most productive thing I can do today It at least for me It's I now can say that and and not feel a ton of anxiety around it because before it was like when I had a job And I was accountable to a company and a boss, like I, even if the boss was understanding, I couldn't, I couldn't say, Hey, I just need to not get anything done today.

[00:55:29] And, uh, because I'm in this emotional state. Right. I felt like I couldn't say that. And which meant that I had all this anxiety of like, And this pressure that I was putting on myself of, I need, I have to get things done because they are paying me, uh, to, you know, be in the office or whatever. And, uh, and, but in reality, like I'm not productive at all.

[00:55:52] And, and the longer I stay in this, in this state of, of, of putting that pressure on myself, the longer this, you know, this, this is going to last, but like I, and so it was just really hard to kind of pull myself out of that. So I'm learning that. I think a lot of this too is just, um, it's, it's learning about myself and also learning what, I mean, when I knew, which was like, I, I'm doing something now that is much more aligned with who I am and, and, and I'm, I'm experiencing more and then, and this isn't just necessarily like a job versus no job because I ran my own business for three years and.

[00:56:26] And, you know, aside from maybe like three to six months, I felt the same thing. It was just like a different, it was like I was my own worst boss in that, in that scenario. But like now I'm, I am, I'm approaching everything completely differently than I was before. And um, and I'm, and I'm letting myself just be me and enjoy life.

[00:56:45] And it's like, I can, you know what, I can take 10 minutes and go play with the kids in the middle of the day. Um, I don't have to. Always be trying to produce things, um, or learn new things or, you know, whatever, um, I, there, that's how I've fallen into traps in the past of, of being very, uh, like neglecting those other parts of myself because those are, were parts that I wasn't, I wasn't comfortable with.

[00:57:15] Um, and so now, now I'm prioritizing. My relationships and my health and, and things like that and learning what that actually looks like in the day to day. So it's been, it's, you know, it's been a bit of a rollercoaster, but it's also been really fun and enjoyable. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. 


[00:57:36] Conclusion
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[00:57:36] Josiah: Well, that's all the things this, this was fun.

[00:57:39] I really enjoyed hanging out with everybody. Um, I'm glad we, we tried this new structure. Like I said, let us know in the comments what you guys think and uh, until next time. 

[00:57:49] Cody: Well, and if you haven't joined the community, come join the community because this is being posted everywhere. Right. 

[00:57:54] Josiah: Right, yes, so if you're not in our community, 

[00:57:58] Cody: yeah, Enneagram5.

[00:58:00] com slash community I'm gonna post my Febby Riders link there I meant to do it earlier in the month But I'm gonna do it and see if I can get everybody to give me like Your favorites cuz I would really love that. I wrote a song in there. That's Literally a five song. It's like a theme song. It's called I was right and that's the problem and It's great when I when I listened back to it.

[00:58:18] I was like, oh my god. This is a five. This is just about a five Yeah, so go there and we'll hang out and continue talking and you can help us grow this thing the way that you want it 

[00:58:33] Josiah: Yeah, and also, uh, go subscribe to the newsletter, Enneagram5. com slash newsletter, and uh, I'm excited about, like, I've already got the next couple of weeks, um, written, the drafts written on those, and I'm like, as I'm, as I'm going through, I'm like, oh man, this is really good.

[00:58:47] Like, I'm excited to share this with everybody, so, uh, go check that out as well. Alright. Yep. Until next time. Take care, everybody. See you later.