[LIVE] Do Fives Secretly Want to Be Seen?

Intro
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[00:00:00] Josiah: Hello and welcome to Enneagram five Live. Hello. The, the intro music cracks me up. 'cause every time I hear the little like high pitch thing, I just chuckle. 

[00:00:55] Cody: Yeah. Well, and the, and it's like. Melodic. Right, right. Every time. 

[00:01:01] Speaker: It's 

[00:01:01] Josiah: so good. I love it. Alright, well welcome everybody. Uh, we have a show, I don't know what kinda show it's gonna be, but it's gonna be a show.

[00:01:12] Um, we're doing our, uh, segments again that we introduced last time. And so we're gonna, we have, uh, one announcement, uh, upfront, and then we're gonna do red, yellow, green, which is our chance to just sort of check in with each other, uh, check in with ourselves because as fives, we like to not do that very often.

[00:01:32] So this is an opportunity, and then we're gonna talk current curiosities. Which is, uh, where we talk about the things that we've been researching recently or any rabbit holes we've been going down. Um, then we're gonna debunk the myth that fives don't like being vulnerable. So that'll be a fun one. We'll play a little game of, would you rather?

[00:01:54] And then we'll, uh, the last one is growth versus comfort. So what's where we share something that we're trying to get better at, even though, um, our five instincts are fighting against it? All right, so let's go. Okay. The, I expected you to say something in response. I don't know. No, I needed to take a sip of water.


Announcement
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[00:02:18] Josiah: Okay. Yeah. Uh, so the, the big announcement is that as of today opening, uh, the, the cart has opened for. Our new program called Beyond the Mind, and I'm really excited about this. We're taking it, we're start with a beta group, a small beta group to take people through a six week group coaching program. And what that looks like is, uh, six weekly lessons, guided exercise design specifically for fives.

[00:02:46] Um, six. Weekly group calls, um, and then having accountability and discussion in a private community, uh, as well as some guided tools that I'm developing. So, um, I'm really pumped about this. The, the goal of this is to, um, help you get out of your head and enjoy your life. And, and so this isn't just a course, and the reason why we're doing this in a group setting is that, you know, we love to.

[00:03:13] Take courses and things like, and read books and things, um, and learn a lot of stuff and learn a lot of theory, but then we struggle putting that into practice. And so this is specifically designed to help us as fives, put these things into practice, start building these habits that help us get out of our heads more and engage in life more, um, so that we can connect with the people around us and enjoy our life.

[00:03:37] So, um, that, uh, if you want to. Get more details on that. The cart will be open until Sunday. Um, April 20th. And I have a banner here that I may, here we go. Yeah. All right. So you can join the beta group for Beyond the mind@enneagramfive.com slash Beyond the Mind. And that is our obligatory ad read. There we go.

[00:04:02] There you go. Alright. All right, so let's jump into it. 


Red / Yellow / Green
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[00:04:07] Josiah: Cody Red, yellow, green. How you doing? 

[00:04:11] Cody: Um, let's see. I think I am, I think I'm yellow, but only really only because. I overextended myself this last week and said yes to too many things and, uh, many months ago. And it all, I felt like Ron Swanson on March, uh, 31st.

[00:04:36] That's kind of how I felt, but it's been this whole last week, um, for any parks and Rec fans. But, um, yeah, I think it's just been, it's just been a lot, but it was all like really fun things. We went to Atlanta on Friday. To see, um, one of our favorite, uh, bands, which was super fun and was always a good experience for me as a musician.

[00:04:57] Um, and, but then we also saw another show in town on Monday, and then in between that I had like, work things every single day and stuff in the evenings. And it was just, it was a lot, a lot of stuff going on this past week and this week is. Not unlike last week, it's just been a, like, it is just a crazy month.

[00:05:18] Um, so I'm really just trying to like, you know. Trudge ahead and get through the month, I think is, um, where I'm at right now. But I am also like working on things that I like and trying to figure out how to, like, develop systems for work, which we can get into, um, probably in the next section. And so, um, yeah, I think overall.

[00:05:41] Pretty good. I don't, yeah, I, I, I, I, I wouldn't say that I'm necessarily green because I have felt a certain level of anxiety that's like been building under the surface, but I literally think it's just because I haven't had as much time to myself as I normally would. So, um, in typical five fashion, um, it makes me grumpy.

[00:06:00] Yep. So, yeah, its kinda, you can definitely relate to that. Awesome. 

[00:06:04] Josiah: How about you? I am also yellow. Uh, it was red earlier today. I'm trending up, trending upward, which is good. That's good. No, uh, I, it was, I think that the, the main contributor is poor sleep. I just did not sleep well last night. I was having same trouble breathing.

[00:06:23] Yeah. And so I just struggling today hardcore. And then, um, why are you having trouble breathing? Uh, just like congestion and stuff, I think. Oh, okay. 

[00:06:34] Cody: Um, like they have doctors for that. I went to one 

[00:06:39] Josiah: and machines, no, I know how to breathe. Okay. Um, and uh, and then at breakfast, my oldest son asked just like a simple question that sort of sent me into this like.

[00:06:51] Uh, existential spiral for, for a minute. Oh, okay. Complete. Completely caught me off guard 'cause, uh, which, which was fun. Um, and thankfully that doesn't, uh, derail me for weeks or months. Now I can, I can pull myself out of that, um, you know, usually pretty quickly. Uh, today was, I think because I was really sleep, uh, really just tired.

[00:07:15] It, it, um, it was harder, but, um. But I am, I, I'm show like I'm, I've showed up, right? I'm here. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and even when, like, that's the thing, I think that, I think that what made it harder too was knowing that, um, knowing that we were doing this tonight. And then knowing that, like, I had just got done doing this training last week for everybody.

[00:07:42] Yeah. The free training we did about stopping the thought spirals, and then I was in a thought spiral, and then I, like, I would, I would get myself out of it, but then I would go back into it because it's like, you know, it it, it's like how can you teach people how to get outta thought spirals if you're in the thought?

[00:07:55] And it's just, it's so, it's so stupid the way that like, like your, your mind tries to play those games with you. Um, and, and, but I was able to. And, and I knew that, I knew because we were showing up, there's a lot of resistance that sort of building, um, to doing this tonight because of all of that stuff, because of how I was feeling like it's easy to come when you know things are going well and I can talk about that, but then when I have an off day and that happens to be the day that we're doing one of these or we're recording or something, it's like it amplifies all of the negative emotions earlier that day because I know that like.

[00:08:33] There's this extra pressure that I put on myself to get over it or get through it before tonight, which just makes it worse. So, sure. But, so I'm learning a lot about myself, uh, in this process, which is fun. Um, I almost feel 

[00:08:47] Cody: like you don't have to though, like, I don't know, like. Due to the nature of this show and the fact that it's about opening up, you don't necessarily, oh, I have to get over it.

[00:08:58] Josiah: No, 

[00:08:59] Cody: I, I know that's the thing. Oh, it's like, 

[00:09:01] Josiah: okay. Logic, logically, I know that. Oh, right. Okay. But it's, but you felt the need to like be in a certain Yeah. Mindset. It's, I got you. It's, it's that resistance. It's that inner, inner resistance of like, that means that. If I am going through some, some, some stuff, that means I have to be, you know, vulnerable about it and, or, or, 'cause I can't, like I can't hide it.

[00:09:20] Right. Um, right. And, and so then that just adds to that sort of pressure. Um, yeah. Got it. Okay. That makes sense. I'm with you now. Yeah. Alright. 


Current Curiosities
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[00:09:33] Josiah: Shall we move on to current curiosities? I think so. You think so? Yeah. What's something you've, uh, been researching lately? I. 

[00:09:42] Cody: I have been about six feet over my head in the deep end of chat, GPT, and I am losing my mind.

[00:09:52] Um, in a good way though. In a good way, I think because, um, well, so I went down this, I went down this rabbit hole because I had the thought the other day, a couple weeks ago, a few weeks ago, of how can chat GBT. Um, assist me in doing my job more efficiently. And that's an easy question to ask. It's a lot harder to explore all of the ways in which it can do that.

[00:10:16] Mm-hmm. And so. I've been testing and found the boundaries of what chat GBT can do and can't do, um, based on that information, like I didn't know that it only saves certain information for so long and then will wipe that information. And so when I spent two to three days uploading my entire work. Product database onto it and then found it gone three days later.

[00:10:41] I was pretty angry. Um, and then I haven't really touched it since, and so I'm trying to figure out how to pick that ball, you know, get back up on that horse and, and keep going. But, um, yeah, so I guess there's, and also too, like, I think it's just about trying to also, uh, find. Like a process in which I feel like I can rely on to help me use less energy for work, you know?

[00:11:10] Mm-hmm. Because the thing that I'm starting to realize is like the, the, the more I, and, and I'm also jumping ahead because this is a hundred percent, this answers a little bit for a different section, but, uh, a different segment we're doing. But, um, I'm finding that the more, the more the, the, the part of me that wants to do better at my job.

[00:11:29] Is realizing that in order to do, do the level that I actually want to do to be good at this job, 'cause now I'm starting to feel like, okay, I can actually like be good at this job, but like it takes significantly more effort and energy than I am currently giving to it and or have given to it in the past.

[00:11:44] I. And, uh, and because of the, the ever moving target of sales, um, uh, I, I'm going up now against my good numbers last year that I have. Ah, yeah. And so I've now have stepped it up for myself, unfortunately. And so, um, in order to maintain even status quo, I now have to beat what I did last year. And so, uh, trying to figure out like innovative ways and also trying to like incorporate my five ness into that process because.

[00:12:13] As we all know, sales is not a, a natural thing for fives to do. And so, um, you know, just trying to explore a lot of that aspect of that and I found that chat GBT can do a lot of things that is really cool. But what I did, I. Um, pick up this past week about chat GPT. You know, it's funny, like eventually you're just like, I kind of just wanna see what all it can do.

[00:12:36] That doesn't matter. And so I created action figures of everyone that I know. Um, using chat, GPTI was waiting for it to register. Um, and comic books. Of me as a superhero, what, what does it think that I would look like as a superhero? I am a ashamed to say that it, it thinks that I apparently am going to festivals and drinking beer all the time and called me the luminator.

[00:13:05] Um, and I, and I just have a bunch of like, cans all over me of beer and don't drink beer. Um, so anyway, uh. Yeah, I, I, I think that I, I, and I was honing in on that and learning that for way too long this past week on like how to input better. But the way I look at it is like in the long run, learning how to come up with steps to get the answer that I want out of chat, GBT will actually, in turn, at least, I'd like to think that it will, um.

[00:13:34] You know, it will inform the ways that I try to use it in positive and productive ways. So yeah, it was, it seemed, it seemed helpful. Um, but also it was, it provided much entertainment. Yeah. 

[00:13:47] Josiah: Sounds like a great use of time. 

[00:13:49] Cody: Hey, if 

[00:13:49] Josiah: you wanna see 

[00:13:49] Cody: your action figure, I'll send it to you. 

[00:13:51] Josiah: Yeah, send it to me. Uh, we should have coordinated this because mine is also very che GT heavy.

[00:13:57] Oh, well, hey, I'm actually interested 

[00:13:59] Cody: to hear it then. 

[00:14:01] Josiah: Yeah, so mine all started with, I think I mentioned before, I'm, I'm doing a, um, uh, I've been building a home server. Um, yeah. And, and this is something that I wouldn't have done before, just because like I have the, I have the technical chops. It's just like, it's one of those things that.

[00:14:19] It's so tedious and there's so much that goes into it that it, it would take so much of my time to research and I just know that like I would, I would, it would take over my life if I actually let myself go down that path and I just can't do that right now. Yeah. Um, but I've been wanting to do it for a while and, and so I was leveraging chat, GBT.

[00:14:39] To, um, to help me like, like shortcut a lot of that and put together a strategy for like, so it, it helped me figure out like what, what I wanted to buy, like what components I needed, um, what software I wanna run on it. And then actually would give me the command prompts to like install the things. And so I put together this whole strategy and then like, I went to Amy, I'm like, this is what we're gonna do.

[00:15:01] She's like, okay. 'cause like my thing is. I want to, I wanna get rid of as many streaming services as I can. Um, and, and so I'm just trying to move everything to my own server 'cause I know that I can do that. Um, and, and so I, uh, I was researching with chat GT and put together the plan and then, but went through, bought all the stuff, started putting it together only to realize that, uh.

[00:15:34] It just made something up. That mean was very S what? Like, so it, so this is getting really into the weeds, but there, when you're configuring, if you have a set of drives. My, I have a four bay enclosure. Okay. And my, my thing's kind of like special in that because I already had a Mac mini. Um, that I had, I had bought when I got my new job, because they said you can't do personal projects on your work computer.

[00:15:58] I'm like, okay, well I'll get a Mac mini and use that. And then I ended up being able to keep my, my laptop right where they laid me off. So I'm like, well, I have this Mac Mini, I can't return it 'cause it's past the window. And um, and so I'll just use that as like the. Core part of my home server and then just hook up a direct attached storage device to it with a bunch of drives.

[00:16:18] Cody: Okay. 

[00:16:18] Josiah: And, and there are ways that you can configure those drives. And so there's, you know, there's like RAID zero, raid one, jbod then, and then there's, uh, raid five, which was the one that I wanted to do. Okay. And, um. I won't get into the specifics of that. 'cause that's way, way too in the weeds. 

[00:16:34] Cody: Yeah, I know.

[00:16:34] I don't care. So nobody, nobody way anybody else does, 

[00:16:38] Josiah: like 1% of the people listening to this might care. Right? Yeah. Um, and, and it told me that I could use the, the native raid management and ma os to do raid five, but that hasn't been available for over a decade. I built kinda a whole strategy around this.

[00:16:58] So then I had to like, go through the process of figuring out, you know, how to manage raid five on my own and like, what, what software's available? Uhhuh. Then I had to figure out like, do I, do I go with this open source software or do I get, do I, do I buy a different enclosure that comes with the license for the software that I need?

[00:17:17] It was just like this whole thing, but then I, once I figured that out, I'm like, okay, well, you know, why did it hallucinate? And so then I started researching why it hallucinates, and then I started researching and getting into, um, like how the context window actually works. Um, because I would notice, like when I have a, when I have a window open, um, I, you know, it, it might start out really good.

[00:17:41] Um, and, uh, and then over time it just gets less helpful. And it's because inside of the window, the way that it works is it starts like. Like you said, forgetting stuff in the middle of the conversation. Yeah, so it, it, it prioritizes usually stuff at the beginning and then stuff that's most recent, but the longer the conversation goes, it starts pulling stuff out of the memory of the, of the middle of the conversation.

[00:18:06] And so that's why like really long windows, um, usually depending on what you're doing, usually don't work. And so that, like that sent me down this whole rapid trail. Yeah. Of how I got to this place where it just made something up and I based a whole strategy of putting this thing together around it.

[00:18:22] Yeah. 

[00:18:22] Cody: And also if you're paying for it, it should not delete. Shit. It just, I, why? I get why it's a memory issue. Yeah. No, I know, I know. I get why, but it still makes me mad. I'm just like, man, like all that information and you just can't use it. At least let us be able to like pin information to its core, you know?

[00:18:43] Know what I mean? Pin it. So do 

[00:18:44] Josiah: you use the projects because the projects, yeah. So you could and maybe know how Yeah. If you upload them as separate documents to the projects themselves, then that that will stay. If you're just like putting it inside of a chat, um, it's not, it's not going like it'll, 

[00:19:00] Cody: okay.

[00:19:01] We're gonna revisit, we're gonna visit this after, after. You can tell me, I'm curious. Okay. Um, I don't, uh, yeah. Anyway, we won't get in, in an effort to move on. 


Do Fives Secretly Want to Be Seen?
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[00:19:13] Cody: Okay. Let's go to the next 

[00:19:15] Josiah: segment. Let's go. Alright. So. I, this might be a little controversial, and, um, those of you watching and listening can put, uh, in the chat what you think of this.

[00:19:26] Um, I think that it is a myth that fives don't like being vulnerable and Okay. And so I, because the reality is that it, yeah. While it does feel risky. We actually want to be seen, like we have a desire to be seen and to connect, but we're afraid of being misunderstood or overwhelmed. And so I think that there are, there are core fears under that, that surfaces as this, like, um, aversion to being vulnerable.

[00:20:07] Um, but, but the, the reality is we do want to at least selectively be vulnerable, uh, with people. What do you think of that? 

[00:20:17] Cody: I think that what you're saying is true, um, but it's so nuanced. I don't know. There's, it's more complex than just, uh, narrowing it down to that line. Um, I think that because like. I don't know.

[00:20:32] It's like to just talk about like, the idea of, like, that we're afraid of being misunderstood. I'm not, actually, it's odd. I'm not that afraid of being misunderstood. I, I, in some, and in some ways kind of like it because it's like a security blanket. I, if you don't, if you misunderstand me, whatever, that's your problem.

[00:20:49] You know? But, but if, but if you know me really well and you. You know, don't like an aspect of me or something that I think or feel or whatever. It, it, you know, it's, it, it, it's, it's much more invasive and it's much more, um, like scary and intimidating. So I think that, um, though I do want to, you know, down into the depths, sure.

[00:21:20] I want to be, I want to be known. I don't wanna be known. By everyone. I wanna be known by some people and probably people that can, I can count on one hand, um, and everybody else can. You know, I. Get what they get. But like, and, and I say that as someone who literally opens up on a weekly basis on a show where we have thousands of people listening.

[00:21:43] But, uh, and, and I, I try not to think about it too much, but they, I think that, uh, there's this, I don't know. Yes, I guess you're right, it's true. I, we do wanna be known, but it almost feels like not. I don't know, like it's, uh, they're separate things. Like they don't have to be, like, they can be mutually exclusive, like vulnerability and, and being known.

[00:22:07] Um, now granted, and I, I don't, I can't remember if we've had this conversation on air or off air, but, um, I'll just say it like, I think, and I know that we've, I think we've talked about this before about, um, this idea of, uh, you know, I know that I want to be vulnerable with, especially with the people I care about first because.

[00:22:28] Uh, you know, the more you learn about psychology and the way that people connect and human beings connect, vulnerability is a huge part of that. And like the person that gets to see this side of you that's like. Silly and unpolished and unfiltered is usually the person that, that you feel, um, the most connected to and they feel the most connected to you.

[00:22:50] Like that's where like true connection tends to come from, I think. And so like consciously, you know, I know I want to be vulnerable, but it's like one of those things where it's like. My mind's telling me no, but my body. Um, so I think that, um, you know, I, you, yes, yes and no. You know, I want to be vulnerable.

[00:23:17] Vulnerable, but you know, it's also insanely like only sometimes it's like really overwhelming to think about. What that even looks like and how it plays out in my life. So like it's more the fear of the process than the actual idea of it. 

[00:23:35] Josiah: Yes. Yes. I agree. I agree with that. And I think that, um, as you were talking, I was thinking about how our subtypes might play into this.

[00:23:42] Mm-hmm. Um, with you as a self pre and, and me as a social definitely. Um, so when you, when you said that you, you don't mostly don't really care about being misunderstood. Um, I. Going back to context windows, I wonder is like a difference in context windows because when I, um, am unpacking that internally for me it, the, the fear there, it depends on the context of, of, you know, the relationship.

[00:24:09] Um, if, if it's something where I have to. Like a work situation, um, or some sort of like group dynamic, right? There's the fear is of, of being misunderstood, really has more to do with the amount of effort that it's going to take for me to integrate to, uh, to achieve the objective. Right? Okay. Yeah. Um, and so like if, if I'm with people who understand me easily, then.

[00:24:41] I can relax. I don't have to put a bunch of effort towards it. And, and that gets into my fear of depletion, right? The fear, fear of being overwhelmed. Um, and, and then there's also, um, there's this, I hate repeating myself. Um, and I do this, I do this thing that's, uh, drives Amy crazy. Um, which, you know, 'cause she, she often will like lower her voice, especially when we're anywhere near the vicinity of kids or really anyone else.

[00:25:16] Yeah. Or even when we're not, she'll, like, if she's talking about something that she, you know, uh, feels vulnerable, I guess, sharing Sure. Like she will, she'll lower her voice. Yeah. And I, I, it, it, I, that drives me crazy because I had then have to like. Really focused to listen. That's what she wants, which takes way, way more mental energy and effort.

[00:25:41] Well, yeah. Yeah, sure. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and then, um, and, and then, so I'm, I am often what will happen is like, I'll miss things, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and, and then one of the things that I do, one of the things that I do is like if I'm in like the other room and she's trying to, uh, tell me something. Like, I'll often just respond like, I didn't hear anything you just said.

[00:26:07] Same. I did the same thing. Yeah. But what drives her crazy is that she called me out on this the other day, which was like, you know, you say that, but it's not a, Hey, I, I, I couldn't hear you 'cause you repeat that, it's a, Hey, uh, what you said was really not that important to me, so I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing.

[00:26:25] Cody: Well, yeah, usually when I say it, I'm saying it along the, with the line of, give me two seconds, let me just come in there and talk to you. So if you just keep going, know what you're doing. Yeah, I could see her side of it actually. 

[00:26:37] Josiah: Yeah, I know. Me too. But there's, in this, there's this, I love how red your face got when you said that too.

[00:26:42] I know. Um, there, there's such a energy management like. There. It takes, like sometimes I'm, I'm like, I don't know how we do this as fives. Um, you know, this podcast, because I, we ha like, I have to kind of get into almost like a flow state and I think like we've adapted ourselves to where we can, we can do that fairly easily at this point.

[00:27:07] Mm-hmm. But if I'm not in that state, then it takes so much effort to get what's out of my head. Into a form that someone else can understand and, and so it's the, the fear of, for me, of being misunderstood is that I always have to then, like there's a fear that I'm gonna have to always think through every single thing like 10 times before I say it.

[00:27:35] Right, because I'm trying to, I'm trying to like, make it make sense for someone else. Um, if, if I am, um, you know, if there's no, if there are no stakes in the inter in the interaction, then it's like, it's no big deal. Like I don't care if I'm misunderstood or whatever, but if, if there are, if there's something that needs to get done or if there's like, it's a relationship that's important to me and there are stakes, then um, I think that that's where that really, where that fear comes from around being misunderstood.

[00:28:00] That, and I think that like. There's a part of me, and maybe this is because as a social five, I'm more, um, aware of and invested in the social dynamics around me. But there's a part of me that also like, because I want to be known and I have this story that I'm hard, like I, I don't fit in or I'm weird. Um, then there's also a fear there that, uh, no, like I can never truly be known.

[00:28:31] Hmm. Because people will never actually understand me. Like no one will actually get me. And so then, so then, and so I'll always be lonely. Like that's where that fear kind of comes from, I think, too. 

[00:28:41] Cody: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I think that that's, I, I, I can relate to that, but kind of on, like you said, with the subtypes and maybe with wings, like I just feel like.

[00:28:50] There, you know, the spectrum of how we, me and you specifically see things is usually like coming at it from like both sides of it. Um, instead of like from the same side. And so like I agree with you on. Um, a lot of what you just said in terms of, um, just first of all, before I get too far, because I'm getting distracted by this thought, I need to say it out loud.

[00:29:12] You should just, anytime you wanna say something to somebody including me, um, just drop it in chat, GPT and say, Hey, fix this.

[00:29:22] Josiah: So then you don't get to know me at all. You get to know the cha. No, that's not true. Filter of me. 

[00:29:26] Cody: Well, but I mean, like, I, I, then you can, like, it might, might open up or unlock a way that you could say it that you didn't, that it just, you jumped to the end of the process and then you just get to decide on what you wanna say anyway, um, 

[00:29:39] Josiah: count, counterpoint there.

[00:29:41] Um, we'll talk about this on, on the segment number five. 

[00:29:45] Cody: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, so yeah, I think that, uh, I feel the, the, the loneliness part is like. It's such a truth that I think I would be, I would, I would be, um, very surprised to hear any five disagree with that line. I think because every five I have ever known in my life struggles with this same feeling of, it's more than just isolation, right?

[00:30:13] It's this idea that we feel, so other than that we can't, like, it may, you know, it's that, and in some ways, like for me, that's, that's the way that I tend to, you know. Use it as a cop out as a scapegoat, right? It's like, well, I mean, will they ever really know me? So is it worth the energy, you know, and I can pour my energy into these things over here, um, that I care about and I know can get done.

[00:30:36] And so I think that, um, one for me, the thing that I think about, and it's kind of like, well, kind of what you were saying, uh, with Amy is it's like when I, I know that when I really. In, in the same way that you talk about getting into a flow state to do these things. I think that for me, the, the process of getting into some type of, uh, mental head space where I can find, try to find those moments of vulnerability and, and honesty within myself in a situation is to, uh, it's, it's helpful for me knowing what, what is going to happen or like.

[00:31:10] Kind of what situation I'm walking into beforehand so that when I get there, I don't have to, I don't have to think through the whole process of like getting into the mindset. I just tell myself, I'm all in right now. Whatever this is, I'm all in on it. Everything is yes. Like, you know, diving in the deep end, no floaties.

[00:31:30] Right. And I think that that helps me, and that's something that this podcast has taught me. Like the, honestly, that's the biggest thing that I could take away from with this show. Um. Is that, uh, it's, it's helped me to learn, to sit in, in a space and go, okay, I'm all in. Whatever's hap whatever happens, happens.

[00:31:49] And I'm just going to be honest with myself and everyone else, and I think that that's the most helpful thing that I have. Probably learned in the last few years because yeah, other things are hard. It's hard to like think about being vulnerable and yeah, I come across topics that I'm not necessarily like so willing to share, but then I get to be faced with this idea of like, well, it's coming out, so like how are we gonna go about it?

[00:32:12] Right? And so I, it kind of takes away some of those steps that I would probably use as resistance in the past to not go there. Um, and instead. Just kind of just, you know, not to, I hate this phrase, but I'm gonna say it. Um, but it gives me the ick when I hear it, other people say it, but like, lean into it, you know?

[00:32:32] But like, almost physically, like really lean in to the, to the idea of just, didn't I say lean 

[00:32:37] Josiah: into letting go on one of the recent episodes? I don't 

[00:32:40] Cody: know, man. I don't know. But if you did, I hated it. I know, I remember the look on your face. Yeah, it just reminds me, it just, it's, it reminds me of evangelicalism and it, you know, bad memories, bad past.

[00:32:53] I still have therapy I need to go to for all that. Um, but yeah, I mean, but it, but the loneliness factor, like have, I haven't yet figured out how to, how to overcome that aspect of it, you know, it's like. Almost The more vulnerable I am, the more I find myself in, in, in moments where I want to pull away even more, which is crazy like that and I, maybe it's not crazy, but it's, it's definitely caused some.

[00:33:22] Uh, it caused me to have to look inward a bunch in those moments where I, I feel like I've put myself out there and then maybe it wasn't well received or it was misunderstood, or whatever the case, and then you have to decide, okay, well, do I like, keep, you know, going with this or should I pull back? Like, what, what, what do we do from there?

[00:33:44] And, you know, I think that's such a, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, you know, a work in progress, I guess. 

[00:33:51] Josiah: Yeah. 

[00:33:52] Cody: Well said. 


Would You Rather?
---

[00:33:54] Josiah: All right. Would you rather those watching? Can, uh, put your, your answer in the chat too? Uh, would you rather Yes. Yeah. Uh, would you rather have endless curiosity but constant anxiety or total inner peace, but very little drive to actually explore.

[00:34:21] Cody: Um, I feel like you're asking this, knowing what my answer is. Um, having no, it's having endless curiosity, but constant anxiety is my. Always state like that is my being. Um, so the idea of total inner peace, but little drive to explore, um, actually sounds pretty blissful for the most part. Um, and is the, honestly, that's kind of the, the mindset that I, um, I.

[00:34:47] Strive towards when needing a break, like vacations, you know, whatever. It's like I have to try to find that inner peace. Uh, but I can't, you can't put any energy towards anything to do that almost because as soon as I start taking in information, anxiety goes up and curiosity goes up, and I, they just go, it's like two different, you know, meters going up at the same time and they, they, they.

[00:35:14] They're, they're very connected to each other. They're, you know, they're locked. So it's like, um, I, I don't know. I think, man, that's such a hard question to a answer in that way because 

[00:35:27] Josiah: it seems, it seems simple on, on the front, but then when you start thinking about it, you're like, oh man, damn it. 

[00:35:34] Cody: Yeah.

[00:35:34] Because I love to learn and Yeah. Um, and the feeling of figuring something out to where it no longer, I. Brings you anxiety is worth the, to me, it's worth the journey to get there. All the anxiety that I feel leading up to it. When I finally, whether I like, whether it's a puzzle to be solved or whatever it, whatever the situation is that I'm looking up or trying to learn about and that curiosity has led me to that place.

[00:36:03] The moment that I decide that I no longer need to go forward with that thing is usually a pretty great feeling. 'cause it's either, either means that I've gotten what I needed to out of it. Or I didn't and realized that I never needed to be in that place to begin with. So it's like, it's such a, um, a validating and, um, satisfying feeling that I would rather have that 'cause total inner peace, but little drive to explore, um, also sounds a lot like, um, just living in the blissful ignorance of life and, um, doesn't, I don't wanna be one of those people either.

[00:36:43] Because, you know, I like to know things. 

[00:36:46] Josiah: So are you going with the endless curiosity and constant anxiety? I am. Ah, okay. I, I have gone back and forth on this as you do, right? Because there's, there's absolutely a part of me. That everything I'm doing is just to get to the point where I can have this inner peace.

[00:37:10] It's just like where? Yeah, but 

[00:37:12] Cody: it's a dangling carrot. 

[00:37:13] Josiah: Yeah. E, exactly. The world just leaves me alone, right. I have no obligations. I have, you know, nothing being asked of me or required of me. Right. I, I, which means that I, there's never a risk of me feeling overwhelmed. Right. That's, that is the, essentially the inner piece.

[00:37:31] It's like there's never a risk of me feeling overwhelmed. Right? Sure. Um, and I've always had this fear that the world will ask more of me than I have to give. And, and, and so that's why anytime I think about, uh. Taking on anything, taking on any challenge, you know, doing something new. It's, it, there's this, uh, calculus that goes on of how much is this going to require of me and how much do I actually have to give to it?

[00:38:01] And, um, and then even in that, like that generates anxiety. Um, and so there's, there's a part of me that is, you know, thinks about that and it's like, I think it, it depends on like what my life actually looks like. Because I don't think I could get to that state unless I had explored everything that I wanted to explore first.

[00:38:25] You know what I mean? So it's like, am is, is this just like a blissful ignorance or is it like a blissful satisfaction where I have, you know, I have satiated my curiosities so much that I've gotten to the point where, um, I'm satisfied. And if that's the case, then I choose inner peace, but little drive to explore.

[00:38:48] Cody: Okay. Yeah, I was looking at it as, as I see what you're saying now, 'cause it frames it differently because I was thinking of it as like little drive to explore. Says that I have no desire to learn. And um, right. And so, but that's not necessarily the case because I guess the feeling we get from getting to that place where we no longer feel the need to dig into any particular topic brings us that inner peace because we no longer need to explore that thing.

[00:39:12] And I will say this too, I, it's actually, um, when I think about relating that to the rest of my life, like just getting older, you know, like the knowledge that you learn throughout life, and then I think about. How stressed I used to be in my twenties trying to figure life out and I no longer feel that.

[00:39:30] So there is a certain level of inner peace about so many aspects of life now that I feel almost beyond my my years, you know? 'cause I'm only 38, like technically middle age, like very much still young, lots of things to learn, but I just. Whenever I'm around a group of people that are younger than me and not, not even that much younger, even just, you know, six, seven years.

[00:39:53] 'cause you learn a lot in your thirties and um, yeah. You know, 31 versus 30 eight's a ma a completely different person. So like. I feel like when I talk to people like in their late twenties or whatever, you know, work in the service industry, everyone's in their late twenties, early thirties and so, and all like running on this like exhaustive path of constantly working and nothing you, there is nothing else, you know, it's just service industry's a rough place and so.

[00:40:21] It's sometimes I'm just talking to 'em, they're talking about things in life, and I'm like, you're worrying about the wrong things. Like that's not, that's the, you know, and so there's certain, it, it, it brings to me even more contrast of certain areas of my life that I do actually feel a pretty strong inner peace about because I don't feel the need to, like, I just don't, it, I don't, it's, it's not helpful for me to dig into that.

[00:40:41] So I, I have no drive to explore those things. So I guess in a way we kind of have both things. I do

[00:40:50] both. And Cody both. And both. And both. 


Growth vs Comfort
---

[00:40:53] Josiah: And it's true. Alright, um, last segment here. Growth versus comfort. So what's something that you're trying to get better at, even though you're five instincts are fighting against it? 

[00:41:07] Cody: So I was just having this conversation the other day, and that's kind of why I was bringing it up prematurely and earlier.

[00:41:13] In this, in this, in this, uh, episode, I, um. I have recently decided that it would be, it would behoove me to, uh, lean in to, uh, lean into, uh, trying to actually figure out what it looks like to be good at sales, because a lot of what I've gotten thus far, I feel like has been just. Slow progress because of the things that I'm good at and not.

[00:41:47] Trying to operate around the things that I don't particularly feel very naturally good at. And you know, a lot of that is just like hardcore selling a product. But like what I've learned is, especially over time, because this is now the longest I've been at an alcohol distributor, that the more you learn.

[00:42:04] The book of, you know, your portfolio, the more, the easier it is to talk to people about products because you just know about them. And so that's a five thing. That's not sales. That's being like, if you love these products, you would really love all of these products. Like you should definitely take a look at these things because of, you know, A, B, and C.

[00:42:21] And, um, that kind of got me into this. The kind of this hole, like down this rabbit hole of like, you know, what could it look like to figure out how to use chat GBT and like try to use my strengths to become better at my weaknesses rather than just, you know. Trying to white knuckle through that and try to somehow figure it out and, because that was really hard for me working for tech companies and stuff.

[00:42:45] And I just felt like 'cause, but what it did was it showed me that I could do it, even though I hated it. Like I could do it. I could make a hundred cold calls a day. I could do all of that stuff and. But I was not particularly good at it because, uh, who, what five wants to talk on the phone all day, two strangers.

[00:43:05] Uh, and so, you know, it's, it's hard. It was, it was a, that was a soul sucking part of it, at least in my job. Now, all of the buyers that I work with, all the, you know, customers I work with, I know personally, and the majority of them, I look forward to seeing when I see them, you know, and so I think it's like.

[00:43:25] Yeah, that's helped a little bit in terms of like trying to be better at my job. So I guess like, and because I want to be better, part of it is building those relationships and doing, doing things that make me feel uncomfortable. I did, I've always, you know, in some ways looked down on the idea of sales and people, salespeople because of like the general nature of what goes in the culture of sales and, you know, it's like a lot of.

[00:43:52] I don't even know. I feel like it's a lot of like. Personality types that are kind of the antithesis of who we are, um, underneath. And so, uh, it's, I never get along with salespeople, like true salespeople, especially in like the tech world. I never got along with any of them, not truly. And so you wanna talk about feeling lonely and separated.

[00:44:11] Um, definitely felt that. And so I think that it was, it was kind of, you know, for that kind of stuff, it was a really tough sale. But now that I'm in this different, you know. Context. I feel like it's, it's, it's gotten to, I've gotten to that place now where I'm like, shit, now I kinda wanna be good at this.

[00:44:28] And so it's turned around into, now it's my new five Quest Nice. Is to be good at my job. I. You know, go figure. So, um, but I will say five instincts. Try to fight against that a lot. So that's why that is my thing, because then I feel like, am I, am I abandoning who I am? Am I betraying my true nature by trying to add onto those things?

[00:44:55] And so it's, it's a, it's a, it's an inner battle some days. 

[00:45:02] Josiah: Yeah. I totally get that. My. My time in limited time in sales was, it was short-lived because, yeah. Yeah. I couldn't, I just couldn't do it. Um, it's not just the, like interacting with people. It's the, it's the constant grind of it. Yeah. It's like, there's always, it's, it's Sisyphus man.

[00:45:26] It's like, there's, there's always like you, you roll it up, the, the boulder up the hill, and then it falls back down. You roll it back up again and it's like. You know, to your point, you, you did, you know, you, you did well last year and now you have to beat those numbers. And it's like there's, it never stops.

[00:45:42] It's a moving target and it's, it's like 

[00:45:44] Cody: I would, I would equate it more to running through a hot desert, seeing the spring ahead, but it's always further away. Like that's, it's that it truly is the dangling carrot, right? Like, I just want to, I just want it, but like, you're never gonna get it. It's impossible to get it.

[00:45:59] And especially as a five. That's why I know that long term I will not be like, there's no way I will, you know, I don't, I say that God, I've been in sales my entire adult life, but it's literally the reason I'm here now. But yeah, it's, it's, it is a tough, it's a tough grind some days and it like really the only, if I wasn't.

[00:46:18] Pouring wholeheartedly into things that I love, like this podcast and trying to like, really, as I've talked about before, like really jumping into trying to, you know, have build out my skillset in the music world and like the engineering side of things and producing side of things to like have more to offer to the artistic and commu and music community to other people.

[00:46:39] Because I think that's kind of where I want to take, you know, kind of my musical journey in the direction of, um, and. If I didn't have that, if I didn't have those things to look forward to outside of it, I would've already burned out probably a long time ago. Um, but this time around it's just been different because I have learned how to better compartmentalize that energy and that, that as a resource and, and know that like as we've gone through this process in conversation, in past episodes and stuff like.

[00:47:12] It's not a finite resource, it's just, that's how it feels sometimes. And so I think knowing that I can, I know that I'm gonna set aside certain amounts of time and energy for those things, right? And not try to take it all on all the time all at once. And that was something that was burning me out so hard, especially like first, second season of this podcast like.

[00:47:33] Oh my God, you wanna talk about burnout? Like, I was dying. I was so bad. It was a dark time. And uh, so I think that learning how to do it in a healthy way and then knowing that like. It doesn't have to be my identity, it's just part of who I am. It's just, it's part of what I'm doing right now, you know? And so I think that has helped a lot too.

[00:47:53] But yeah, it's, there's nothing satisfying about sales. Nothing. I don't care what anybody says. I don't care. The people that are into sales. They're, they're, they're, what is it like, uh, a masochists? Like they just, they love the torture is really what it's, I, I, I am, I truly believe that there is no satisfaction in sales.

[00:48:15] So it's just this, it's, no, no, I'm not gonna go there. It's, uh, it's, it's just this constant like building pressure that never really releases and it's awful. 

[00:48:28] Josiah: Mm. Yeah. The, the sales guys that I've known who. Stay in it for, you know, decades. It, it, there's like, there's a, there's a high that they're chasing.

[00:48:39] Yeah. It's like they're, they wanna catch that next big wave. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and which I can, I can understand. It's just like, those aren't the waves I want to catch, you know? So it's, those don't appeal to me. 

[00:48:51] Cody: No. I don't get like, emotional thinking about people who made a good sale, you know? I just don't get 'em, I don't, my, I don't tear up, you know?

[00:49:03] It's not the things that I'm watching on YouTube and tearing up to. 

[00:49:08] Josiah: What are the things you're watching on YouTube and tearing 

[00:49:10] Cody: up to, uh, you? Uh, honestly, uh, this is gonna be, it's gonna sound sad. Um, I, people who get recognition for the thing that they love the most. Honestly is what gets me the most.

[00:49:24] People who you know, you I, I, I watch. It's funny, but like, I think that's why I love watching award shows so much because one, I am a consumer who very, very much appreciates the art that that person created. I take special note when I watch the Oscars to try to watch as many nominees as I can because going into it, I want to know what those people are being recognized for and I care about that kind of thing because I'm an artist and.

[00:49:50] When I see certain people now, I didn't ever feel this way when I was younger, but now that I'm older and still have yet to really, you know, and I'm not, not, not yet to achieve, but like am really trying to achieve progress in the thing that I love, I think that that tends to, it's crazy how emotional I can get watching somebody win an award or get that recognition from their peers and, you know, the people that do consume and, and, and appreciate that art.

[00:50:19] Watching them get emotional about it. And it's like, I no longer watch it as a viewer. I'm watching it as, um, like more of an empath in that way. Like I'm, I'm, I'm now seeing myself in that position and what that might feel like to get that kind of recognition and to, for people to say, wow, look you for this thing that you did.

[00:50:38] You were the, that was the best. Like, that was the best thing I saw in that thing ever, you know? And this year. And so, uh, I think that that's. I find that and, and honestly, and the reason why I bring it up about sales is because that's the thing that sticks in my mind all the time now when I'm like. When I'm sitting, when I'm staying up too late trying to, you know, watch videos or read books on like mixing and how EQ works and like, or compression and I'm just like, God, this sucks.

[00:51:07] Like, um, I remember that, hey, like I am only building a skillset towards being the kind of person that I want to be that makes the kind of art that I wanna be proud of and hopefully other people will appreciate. And maybe I can be put in that position where, and you know, it goes back to literally the, um.

[00:51:25] Vulnerability, right? Like to be able to make art like that, you also have to learn to be vulnerable through that process and, and put that, put yourself out there in that way. And I think that, you know, maybe I never made any progress in music before, really, because I didn't know how to do that and I wasn't putting out.

[00:51:43] You know, music, I always thought that one day it would just come, you know, like I'd be doing it long enough that like I'd be able to put out the stuff and that I, that I loved and that I, uh, respected about myself and was really proud of. And I found that what it actually entails is actually just getting to, it's a lot of like inner work on yourself to be the person you want to be outside of all of those things too.

[00:52:06] And, and it turns out that like, you know, you do that work at least. As much as you can. And, um, I, I, I, I started making art that I was proud of. And so, um, and I, I, I'm on a different path and a different journey now that's taking me in that direction of both learning, learning how to be more authentic and vulnerable, um, to, to other people, but also through my art.

[00:52:29] And, and, and to be able to do that, I also have to be vulnerable and I have to be authentic with myself about myself, and, you know. You gotta deal with the ego in that process. So it's a whole other thing. But, but yeah, I don't know. It's just, that's what, that's what gets me, gets me going these days. Yep. 

[00:52:52] Josiah: I, uh, I think for me, the big thing that I'm, I've been focused on is showing up.

[00:53:01] Hmm. Even when I really, really, really don't want to. Yeah. Um. You know, that's, that's been a very long journey for me and there are always new layers that I'm exploring in that. Um, but you know, for example, I talked about this in the, in the newsletter, I think a couple weeks ago I signed up for adult kickball.

[00:53:26] Yeah. And I really didn't want to go, like, as soon as I signed up, I'm like, well, so. First when I signed up, I was, I was looking forward to it, and then I just had this really awkward experience where we were all supposed to meet at this bar nearby to like meet our team and get our, our t-shirts and stuff.

[00:53:53] And, um. It was a very awkward exchange, and like no one from my team showed up except the captain and his wife. Oh. And, um, yikes. And it was like, yeah, it was, it was just, and then it was at this bar that as soon as I walked in, I felt super anxious and, and I did not, I'm like, I'm not gonna enjoy this. This is gonna be awful.

[00:54:19] Like, you know, I just, I, I, I made a lot of judgements and put um. I, I took that experience and transcribed it onto what I thought the experience of kickball was going to be. And I'm like, this is gonna, this, these are not my people. This is not gonna be fun. Um, and so when it came time for our first game, man, everything in me wanted to not go like I was.

[00:54:42] Mm-hmm. I was so close to not going, and I was having like a rough week and it was oh so bad. Um, but I made myself go. Just as a, you know, as a practice in showing up. And I'm like, I will go at least once and give it a shot, and if I don't enjoy it, I don't have to go back. Mm-hmm. Um, but I went and it ended up being fun.

[00:55:05] Like I had a good time and I even went out back to that same bar afterwards and like, we had a good conversation and, you know, I, it, it was, it was a good reminder for me of how I can build stuff up in my head, especially around social. Things. Um, and, you know, it's, it is like I'm, no, I'm not gonna find my next best friend from playing kickball, but I am, I am exposing myself to new experiences and new types of people and new interactions and yeah, they can be uncomfortable or awkward at times, but also there's a, there's nothing quite like that feeling of aliveness that comes from.

[00:55:49] Showing up when you don't know what's going to happen and you don't know how it's going to go. And, uh, and it's messy and it's weird sometimes, and it's also exhilarating sometimes. And, uh, and you can't, you can't replace that. And we try so much to prepare for things as fives, and then we over prepare, we overthink.

[00:56:09] But in doing that. We often rob ourselves, even if we do end up showing up, we often rob ourselves of that, of, of some of the experience because we, we don't just like let life unfold in the kind of the beautiful, chaotic way that it can. Um, and so for me what showing up means is like practicing more of not.

[00:56:33] Mentally rehearsing things and, and not, you know, even like conversations. Um, and, and not trying to build, build up a model in my head of how something is going to work and, and, and, you know, before I go into it, it's just, you know, I'm always gonna do that to some extent. Like that's just part of, I think being a five, but, but, and being intentional about, and, and there, there's great things about that, but there's also like a practice of being intentional about not.

[00:57:01] Always having to operate in that mode, um, so that you can experience other ways of being that enrich your life, that give you, it lets you experience life in a way that you might not if you always stay in your model of operating. Um, and so that's what I've been, I've been practicing. That's awesome. 

[00:57:20] Cody: Yeah, that will, and it'll only, you know, even if you hated it, it would only benefit you to show up in that way.

[00:57:28] Mm-hmm. Like, I think that's something that's also helped me in that way, to where I think like, because you don't know what's gonna happen, you also, like, I don't have a lot invested in what, in the outcome. Right? Like, it doesn't really matter. And so, um, I think. I think I, I, I relate to that a little bit because I feel like I've been trying to not, not just show up, but show up without, which I guess is kind of what you're saying.

[00:57:53] It's just a different way of maybe, of saying it, but like. Um, show up without an agenda like show, uh, show up with no ulterior motives, uh, about why I'm there or what I, you know, what I plan to do. Um, is, and just trying to be in the moment and be present in that moment is I. Always my biggest challenge, I think 'cause, and especially because of my very A DHD brain, like I always have many things going on in my brain.

[00:58:23] Uh, my brain has always got just spinning plates everywhere. Just thinking about all of them at once. And, um, that it's hard to live life in person, uh, when you're doing that all the time. 

[00:58:34] Speaker: Yeah, 

[00:58:34] Cody: that 

[00:58:35] Josiah: makes sense. 

[00:58:35] Cody: Yeah. 

[00:58:37] Josiah: Well, we have come to the end of the hour, so it's thank Perfect timing. Look at this. Yeah, look at this.

[00:58:43] We're getting, we're so good at this co. We're getting, so we don't have to think about it. 

[00:58:48] Cody: Well, maybe it's because my, my energy only goes for about an hour. After an hour I'm gonna start glazing over, so it's like I can feel it. I don't even have to look at the time, like I already know. 

[00:58:59] Josiah: We, uh, we, we time, we time this perfectly on purpose.

[00:59:03] Um, all right, well, thanks everybody. This was fun and, uh, I still don't know how to end these things, so we'll say SS 

[00:59:16] Cody: we'll see all the next one. Bye. Bye.